Different (?) St. Petersburg question

[eupher61]

I've played one, a former co-worker has one. HAD, at least.

I think the lacquer feels even thinner than the plated. Not a particularly good feeling instrument, IMO. The plated felt a lot more secure, somehow. Sturdier, I guess.

[Wyvern]

They are available in lacquer in Germany - see http://www.thomann.de/gb/stpetersburg_202l_bbtuba.htm

[tubathig]

stay away...

[TubaingAgain]

As I FORMER owner of a St. Pete. I would recommend to stay away from St. Pete's. I started to play tuba again after a very long lay off. I decided to start play again and bought a new St. Pete. Didnt take me long to realize I made a mistake in buying one. The intonation, Hmm it sucked the valves sounded like an empty case of beer cans being dropped on the garage floor. So I bit the bullet swallowed my pride,and learned a lesson. I bought a new Miraphone 191 5 valve in gold brass.

Wish I had listened to advice from those on here before I bought the St. Pete

[tubathig]

well, just don't stay away... run away

[ZNC Dandy]

Unless you can find an older actually Soviet made instrument. Some of those horns were amazing instruments.

[Wyvern]

Unless you can find an older actually Soviet made instrument. Some of those horns were amazing instruments.

An old one I tried had a good big sound for its size

[Rick Denney]

Since discussion about some tubas have been reported to cause consternation and lawyerly consultations on the parts of offended individuals, I'll stick with the Parable of the Cameras. Factual statements follow.

I own a collection of soviet-era photography equipment from the Ukraine and from East Germany. The East German stuff was first-class stuff but old-fashioned. Quality control was decent, but the designs were finicky and required some care in use.

The Ukrainian and Russian stuff from the Soviet era (when the Ukraine and Russia were part of the USSR, as East Germany was not), is junk. It's made like a cheap alarm clock. It has a hope of working only because the designs take into account that it will be poorly constructed.

Some U.S.-based importers of the Ukrainian cameras (Kiev brand, made by Arsenal Zavod) would make special arrangements with the factory to have them tweaked ex-factory to correct their lack of quality control and to replace their worst mistakes with better designs. One of those U.S.-based importers (KievUSA of New York) then tried to sell the resulting junque (now elevated from its original "junk") at the same price one might pay for good, used western photography equipment. They had lots of unhappy customers, because the cameras, though improved, were still junque and the customers were paying a price that allowed higher expectations. Another importer (KievCameras of Atlanta) sold them at a price consistent with their quality--about half of the above--and until film photography collapsed altogether, did pretty well. People didn't expect much and at a quarter of the price of new western stuff it was a reasonable deal for someone able to tinker and make it work.

And when the stuff worked, it could produce first-class results. The East German stuff, when it worked and in the hands of a master, could produce world-class results. Compared to some of the early camera-shaped sculptures coming out Asia (excluding Japan and Korea) in the early days, they were at least real cameras.

Some of the Kiev 60's in my collection are nickel-chrome plated, and one is lacquered black. There is no difference in use that I can tell. And I have a highly tweaked Kiev 88CM in black, with leather trim, and at least I don't have to worry about the chrome plating peeling off.

Funny how different fields can be so similar.

Rick "not completely unimpressed with one used St. Pete, but who'd rather spend $3000 on a used Miraphone" Denney

[Eric B]

I play tested one at the Texas Music Educators Association convention nearly 10 years ago. It was too loud in the exhibit to judge, but I thought the tone was good. I ended up purchasing my Miraphone 186 CC 4V (I wish I had waited and purchased a 5 valve).

Last year the symphony conductor had a high school tubist play half of our "All That Jazz" program with us. He was playing a St. Pete and sounded great: tone, intonation, clarity...just great!

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate.

Eric "who thinks too many hardware decisions are based on rumor, than on analytical observation" Beechem

[ajmtuba]

To answer your question on lacquered St. Pete does exist. Believe it or not, it's actually MORE expensive than the nickel. When I bought one in high school about 5 years ago, it was $200 or $300 more than a nickel one.

[iiipopes]

A beat-up used 186 is still better than a new St Pete, for the same price, and even with all the years already on the 186, it will still last longer than a St Pete.

[Lee Stofer]

I first heard one of these tubas played in the Leningrad Orchestra in the latter 1970's, and it was not nickel-plated. I think it was raw brass. The player got a rather intense, very dark sound.

In defense of the purveyors of these instrument in the United States, they have provided these instruments at the request of tuba players that are always looking for a less-expensive instrument. Well, here it is, and many people/school systems have bought them, so the seller is completely vindicated. If the majority of American tuba players were willing and able to readily spend $10,000-15,000 on a tuba, every music store in the country would stock tubas. So, there you have it.

The earlier St. Pete models, including the ones I saw in Europe, were quite primitive in construction, particularly the valves. This has been corrected, and the price has correspondingly escalated. Good workmanship always costs more, because it takes better materials and more work, both of which cost more.

I will venture to say that the newest St. Petersburg tubas can be shop-adjusted and serviced to the point that they can play quite well. If one plans to purchase a St. Petersburg tuba, consult your repair technician, so that you can add his estimate for prepping the instrument to the purchase price, to determine the real cost of one in excellent mechanical condition.
I will also say that the Tuba Exchange has been very good about supplying parts when I have needed to work on a St. Petersburg, and that older models can be upgraded with newer parts.

With proper cleaning and prepping, the valves on a modern St. Pete will work as well as a Cerveny or some other well-known brands. One concern of mine is the very large bore of the instrument, which is too much for most people with less than a 7.5 liter lung capacity. As always, one needs to play-test and carefully consider any purchase.

[iiipopes]

I will say this in defense of the St Pete: he's right about the broad, dark tone. The retrofit upright St Pete bell on my detachable bell 186 has turned it from a good all-round tuba into an intense dark, pervasive beast that belies it's standard 4/4 size, almost Alex-ish, to the delight of all the directors I play under.

[Dan Schultz]

I know my post doesn't deal with your original question regarding the availability of the St. Pete in lacquer.... but....

I've always heard that St. Pete owners usually love the horn or hate it. I've never had one in the shop until yesterday. It's less than two years old. The problem wasn't the fault of the horn. The horn simply sat too long without attention and three of the four rotors were locked up. Someone wrenched the solder joint on the upper paddle bar brace trying to force things to work. There wasn't any serious damage done and after fixing the brace and giving the horn a good chem-clean and lube, it was ready to play again. So... I took it to my community band tonight and gave it a toot. I have to say that I'm impressed with the horn. Intonation and response was much better than I expected. It's a 202N. I'm not a big fan of the nickel, but the horn DOES look and sound good at the moment.

[bort]

I've read many posts on St. Petersburg tubas and now and then entertain the idea of getting one. I've noticed that although they're often discussed and seen for sale, I'm not sure I've ever seen a lacquered one, the 202 L, discussed or up for sale, except the new ones on TE website.

Why doesn't anybody seem to buy the lacquered ones?

Cheers,
Dave

Maybe they just make more nickel plated ones?

[k001k47]

St.Petes sound nice; they need ALOT of valve attention though.

[bigbear19]

I played on a st pete for 3 years in high school. I played everything from basic band pieces to Hungarian march, symphony fantastique, and petrushka. Overall it was a good horn for the level i was at. I bought a pt 7 as a senior and i have never looked back. If I had to say yes or no I would say you can do A LOT BETTER for the same amount of money...Hope this helps.

[Lew]

I've read many posts on St. Petersburg tubas and now and then entertain the idea of getting one. I've noticed that although they're often discussed and seen for sale, I'm not sure I've ever seen a lacquered one, the 202 L, discussed or up for sale, except the new ones on TE website.

Why doesn't anybody seem to buy the lacquered ones?

Cheers,
Dave

I think that the answer to this question is that the lacquered versions were not offered by the Tuba Exchange until recently. How recently I'm not sure, but I do seem to remember seeing only nickel plated ones as recently as a year and a half ago. Since they are the exclusive distributor in the US the only lacquered ones you would have seen are those purchased outside of the US including both relatively recent and older ones.

I suspect that you will see more lacquered ones now that they are available, even though they are the same price as nickel plated. So, I don't think it's that nobody buys the lacquered ones, just that the nickel ones have been available so much longer that they are the predominant finish that you will see.

[iiipopes]

One concern of mine is the very large bore of the instrument, which is too much for most people with less than a 7.5 liter lung capacity.

Confirmed. I have about 5 litres left, and it's hard work.

Sven

With all due respect, and from personal experience with different mouthpieces, the bore is not the only characteristic that affects air requirements; mouthpiece cup, throat and backbore geometry have as much or more to do with air requirements. After the throat or venturi, the widening of the backbore into the leadpipe and the rest of the horn drops the pressure and transforms the action of the horn from the Bernoulli principle of the air transitioning the embouchure to get vibrations going to static wave theory for the horn to resonate. One particular example: my Wick 1L, with its really deep cup, .332 throat and really open backbore just suck me dry on my 186, while the Curry, with its modified funnel cup, .325 throat and different backbore gives me just enough resistance to really help me manage my air support.

But I agree bore, or at least the geometry of the valve block, does have a lot to do with it. My Wick 1 into my Besson has about the same perceived resistance, and therefore helps me manage my breath, about the same as the Curry into the 186. So go figure!

[Wyvern]

That is a very large bore for the size of a St.Pete - about the same as the 5/4 Kaiser tubas and I can tell you my Cerveny similarly really sucks the air

Jonathan "who finds his Cerveny provides a good work out prior to practicing on the Neptune"