Sustaining lenghts

[TexTuba]

Could these ALL be factors to my lack of being able to sustain:

1. not exercising since marching band.....so maybe I should run every day, since I am fat and dont eat too well (stupid college)

2. It is currently pretty chilly here in Texas (pretty rare). Could cold air affect the amount you need to take a breath, since I think it is thinner.

3. I play on a toilet bowl for a mouth piece (PT 50+), which is heavy and huge, could it require more air and such.

4. Not being in shape at all

I worked on breathing exercises today and actually when I teach lessons, and I am doing them the same, and breathing out the same...

First off, you live in a place that is not uncommon for it to be cold. In fact, that is usually the the coldest part of Texas in the winter.

The bottom line is that you're going to have to breathe A LOT for good tuba playing! I'm a big-as-hell tuba player! (300+ lbs.) I am certainly NOT in shape, but I have learned and continue to learn the concept of air efficiency. I breathe many, many times when playing those "big and loud" excerpts. So what? It really doesn't matter about mouthpieces and being out of shape. I'm sure it does help to be in shape, but in the end you just have to produce results. If you can not at this point, then continue to work! You have already received some great advice here, so take what you will from all of this and get to work.

[pulseczar]

Forgive my physics, but I was taught that cold air is thicker. I guess when it gets colder, the air molecules don't move as much and therefore are more compact.

Shaman, JUST a suggestion since we're both just students and don't have much experience to account for anything, but instead of having decent tone for 3 minutes,
how about having great tone all the time. AJ stressed thinking about the music before bodily functions and not allowing the limits of your physiological composition affect how you communicate your music.

[Roger Lewis]

a trick that I use and teach to my students that allows you to make sure that you are getting all the air IN that you can. I like to breathe "in tempo", and I set up so that, as I am preparing for my entrance, no matter where it is, I take a breath (in say, 4/4 time) on the 3rd beat of the bar before I come in, and then another on the forth beat without ever exhaling the first breath. This allows you to completely fill you lung vital capacity.

Now, there's a caution here. When you first start working on this you will get an explosive attack as when your lungs expand that fully, they put pressure on the rib cage and start to push it out, stretching the intercostal muscles between each of the ribs. When you start the exhalation, these muscles are drawn tight like the string on a bow, and it causes the ribs to slam back together creating an uncontrolled blast of air. So you work on this in the practice room.

After about a month or so, the intercostal muscles start to become like the waist band on a worn out pair of underwear and the muscles are more flexible and the exhalation can be controlled quite well.

This allows you to fill up fully and gives you the ability to extend the phrase. If you're going through the air too quickly, back off on the dynamic just a bit. Learn to conserve.

Personally I use circular breathing on rare occasions when I need just a little more, but my personal feeling is that circular breathing, like vibrato, is like zipping your pants in public - it is to be done DISCREETLY.

I'm done now.
Roger

[KevinMadden]

Personally I use circular breathing on rare occasions when I need just a little more, but my personal feeling is that circular breathing, like vibrato, is like zipping your pants in public - it is to be done DISCREETLY.

remembering that quote!

[Rick Denney]

I used to be able to do alot, but the last 2 and a half weeks (i have been practicing like normal) I have gotten to about 2 measurs, and in pieces such as Russian christmas music playing the string bass cues made me memorize it.

Cold air is thicker, but I don't think that has much effect on the situation.

Nor do I think timed tests are particularly useful without an objective standard of loudness, tone quality, and pitch stability. We don't want high-school kids going out and seeing how long they can sustain a wavering, weak tone.

I'm also playing RCM, and the tied pairs of whole notes at the end of the work require three breaths from me to get through. I stagger with my section mate. I would rather breathe in the middle of the note than at the end where it will leave a gap in the phrase. Generally, I try to breathe in the middle of measures and leave the bar-line breathing for others.

My vital capacity is not great. My efficiency is not great. I have to make up for it with strategic and musical thinking, and that is what we should teach high-school kids.

If you have seen a sudden loss of vital capacity, then you are either ill or you have flipped a switch in your thinking that you should unflip before it becomes habit.

Going back to Mike Sanders's teaching, when he talks about breathing often, he's not recommending a strategy for people with a small vital capacity. He's suggesting that we keep the lungs topped up by breathing before it is necessary. A breath to fill the top third of our vital capacity takes much less time than a breath to fill all of it. And when we breathe only to top up, we can choose when we take those breaths so that they are musical. He made this point in lessons and also in his Army Conference master class. It's not original to him, of course, but sometimes I think we forget these basic principles.

Applying that to RCM, I considered how often I needed to breathe at the end of that extended passage of string bass cues. Those are the quick breaths I take because of biological necessity. The usual strategy is for people to sound great on those pizzicato notes for about 8 bars, and then the sound and phrasing breaks down because they are working from the last remaining bit of lung capacity. So, I try to breathe that often right from the start, and use those more frequent breaths to stay topped up.

What breaks the phrase are those huge breaths we take to avoid falling out of our chair. Three smaller breaths in lieu of that one big one would be easier to manage musically and would allow us to sustain the tone, pitch, and dynamic.

Rick "who doesn't conduct timed tests" Denney

[MaryAnn]

So, Roger, for those of us who would love to learn to circular breathe but who have not had much success, how about posting one of your most excellent treatises, on how to learn that?

MA

[TubaRay]

so I've been trying this, but I can't really hear this whooshing noise you're talking about, but my embouchure obviously isn't that efficient cause the results coming out of my bell just aren't on par with pros and such, so am I just not used to what it sounds like, or am I some sort of freak of nature or something?

What?!!???!!!!? No "world class" sound? As to the "freak of nature or something," I am unable to comment.

[Roger Lewis]

Hi Mary Ann.

I'll work that one up tonight and see how it falls in the morning.

All the best to you for the holidays.

Roger

[sungfw]

A bassonist debated against me with the jacobs and porkony thing...cuz she can go 40 measures on one breath she claims.

And you didn't drop a 40 measure excerpt in front of her and challenge her to prove it?

I got 100 bux says she can't do it. (And, no, circular breathing is NOT permitted because circular breathing is breathing, therefore more than one breath.)

[Roger Lewis]

the "whooshing" noise - just blow air through the mouthpiece with the mouthpiece against the embouchure and you will hear a slight whistling sound and the sound of the air as it is expelled through the throat and stem of the mouthpiece. Balance between this noise and the actual buzz sound are one of the keys in developing a sound with efficiency without sacrificing sound, power or color.

Roger

[glangfur]

so I've been trying this, but I can't really hear this whooshing noise you're talking about, but my embouchure obviously isn't that efficient cause the results coming out of my bell just aren't on par with pros and such, so am I just not used to what it sounds like, or am I some sort of freak of nature or something?

If you're getting some buzz but no whoosh, then you're probably not moving enough air. I think Roger's advice is great, and I would add that - as long as you are moving plenty of air - you want to make adjustments to the buzz much more than the air to get to the desired sound. Find the resonance point for your embouchure to do that. It might mean a different interface angle between your face and your mouthpiece, and then - and this is a key point often overlooked - it's up to you to get your playing position with the tuba to match that as closely as possible.

Of course there are adjustments that you can make to how you move air. On bass trombone, I find that it's vital to keep my airstream large and relaxed but also focused, without too much spread. I think of the vowel OOOH (as in tube) much more often than OH (as in road). I'm not a good enough tuba player to know how much this really applies, but my sense is that it still does, and that you can get a lot more efficiency by using a more efficient vowel formation.

tubashaman, the question you repeated a couple of times was how long you should be able to sustain. I think you're starting to get that there is no should. There's just your body and your brain. You be in charge of the sound and the phrase, and do whatever your body needs to do to make the sound and phrase in your head, whether it's breathe once or eleven times.

And of course, it can only help to get regular exercise and pay some concentrated attention to your breathing every day, ala the Sam and Pat show referred to above.