"American" vs. "German" tubas
- iiipopes
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Having played both, I tend to agree. The German concept, with the bowl mouthpieces reinforcing the overtones, is more akin to the extension of the trombone downwards, whereas the American, with the funnel cups, it its own voice, more organ foundational & breadth as opposed to forward presence. Of course, this is for concert tuba playing, not field marching with either souzy or contra, as projection has to be as much of the picture as breadth in that application. This is just my experience. Your mileage will vary; the destination is the same.
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- Alex C
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(Always the contrarion)
The term "American tubas" is too general to define a sound. Certainly the large 2X-J Conn's were designed to be able to sound like a sections of string basses but the King's have a different sound.
Conn 2-J/3-J's? Completely different but still sounds like it's from the same family. As Harvey Phillips said, "you can always identify a Conn tuba sound."
Conn Donatelli, 8X-J's? Again different but within the same family of sound.
Muscular? Ain't nothin' more muscular than a Holton 345 CC tuba. If you ever need to physically manhandle a part, a Holton will cut through from underneath with surprising power.
Most people have not heard enough York's to identify the sound but it is singular in quality. Resonant and with a remarkably full set of overtones being produced by the horn. There is spectrum analysis comparing the overtones of Yorks vs. other American tubas of the day. York overtone production was amazingly even and complete.
King tubas? I haven't played enough of the old ones to describe them except that they seem to produce a less diffuse a sound than the Conn's, generally.
European tubas, in a VERY general sense, produce a sound with a lot of fundamental in the overtone spectrum. The mid-tones (again very generally) are prominant and the upper overtones almost unavailable on a spectrum analizer. This is old "research" that I did too long ago but I hear the same kind of sound from the European horns today.
But who can generalize and say that Miraphone and M-W sound alike? Just because they are European and share some heritage doesn't mean they are the same. They are as different as Conn's and Holton's.
The Nirschl horns (6/4 and 4/4) are close copies of they Yorks and approach them in sound, yet retain the strong fundamental.
The PT 6(?) is supposed to be a copy of a York but sounds distinctly European. On and on.
To the original poster: what's the difference in sound? I don't believe anyone can describe the difference in words; you need to hear a lot of tubas being played. ONce you have it, you can describe it for us.
The term "American tubas" is too general to define a sound. Certainly the large 2X-J Conn's were designed to be able to sound like a sections of string basses but the King's have a different sound.
Conn 2-J/3-J's? Completely different but still sounds like it's from the same family. As Harvey Phillips said, "you can always identify a Conn tuba sound."
Conn Donatelli, 8X-J's? Again different but within the same family of sound.
Muscular? Ain't nothin' more muscular than a Holton 345 CC tuba. If you ever need to physically manhandle a part, a Holton will cut through from underneath with surprising power.
Most people have not heard enough York's to identify the sound but it is singular in quality. Resonant and with a remarkably full set of overtones being produced by the horn. There is spectrum analysis comparing the overtones of Yorks vs. other American tubas of the day. York overtone production was amazingly even and complete.
King tubas? I haven't played enough of the old ones to describe them except that they seem to produce a less diffuse a sound than the Conn's, generally.
European tubas, in a VERY general sense, produce a sound with a lot of fundamental in the overtone spectrum. The mid-tones (again very generally) are prominant and the upper overtones almost unavailable on a spectrum analizer. This is old "research" that I did too long ago but I hear the same kind of sound from the European horns today.
But who can generalize and say that Miraphone and M-W sound alike? Just because they are European and share some heritage doesn't mean they are the same. They are as different as Conn's and Holton's.
The Nirschl horns (6/4 and 4/4) are close copies of they Yorks and approach them in sound, yet retain the strong fundamental.
The PT 6(?) is supposed to be a copy of a York but sounds distinctly European. On and on.
To the original poster: what's the difference in sound? I don't believe anyone can describe the difference in words; you need to hear a lot of tubas being played. ONce you have it, you can describe it for us.
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"Holding the Bordognian Fabric of the Universe together through better pitch, one note at a time."
Practicing results in increased atmospheric CO2 thus causing global warming.
- windshieldbug
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Of course, from what I've learned on TubeNet, a York Master IS, in fact, a German instrument built by Boehm & Meinl.
So are we talking about piston vs. rotary, bore profile, mouthpipe, or what!?![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
So are we talking about piston vs. rotary, bore profile, mouthpipe, or what!?
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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And bell profile?windshieldbug wrote:So are we talking about piston vs. rotary, bore profile, mouthpipe, or what!?
However, it is difficult to define the sound because boundaries have so blurred over the years. I think you would have to compare early 20th century American and German tubas for a comparison - I rather think American concepts have been absorbed into German tuba design in more recent years, while most American style tubas are German manufactured.
I am not even sure if my Mel Culbertson Neptune is American, or German sounding. I have heard both that it is based on the sound of Fletcher's Holton CC and that it is near to the sound of an Alexander. As I have no experience of playing either, I wouldn't know?
Jonathan "who only knows he likes the sound, whichever it is"
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[quote]Jonathan "who only knows he likes the sound, whichever it is"[/quote]
i think that's the answer right there. go try and listen to a lot of different horns and find what suits your ensemble/situation. ex.) i own a PT20ps and i love it. it's german but displays many of the qualities of what we describe as american tubas. it's has a very big and very dark sound that really can be FELT through the ensemble. these would be my descriptions if i had to have any (they kinda sum up what others have already said):
American-
A big dark resonant sound that is easily distinguishable from the trombone section. It is a sound that I describe as being more felt than heard for the better percentage of orchestral lit but can still cut through (not as much as German) for the more solo-like passages.
German-
A direct sound that is again easily distinguishable but adds to the trombone section. where it is resonant it is not as dark. A very meaty tone that can really cut through the ensemble. it fills out the section as being a closer voice to the bass trombone.
hope this helps!
i think that's the answer right there. go try and listen to a lot of different horns and find what suits your ensemble/situation. ex.) i own a PT20ps and i love it. it's german but displays many of the qualities of what we describe as american tubas. it's has a very big and very dark sound that really can be FELT through the ensemble. these would be my descriptions if i had to have any (they kinda sum up what others have already said):
American-
A big dark resonant sound that is easily distinguishable from the trombone section. It is a sound that I describe as being more felt than heard for the better percentage of orchestral lit but can still cut through (not as much as German) for the more solo-like passages.
German-
A direct sound that is again easily distinguishable but adds to the trombone section. where it is resonant it is not as dark. A very meaty tone that can really cut through the ensemble. it fills out the section as being a closer voice to the bass trombone.
hope this helps!
- kingrob76
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Ok, so here's (for me) a logical follow-up question:
Is it easier to make a "German"-style tuba sound more "American" through mouthpiece changes or is it easier to make an "American" sounding horn sound sound more Germanic? Obviously, the horn in question will have a lot to do with the sensitivity to mouthpiece changes. And obviously, there isn't going to be a major shift in the style of the instrument, just a nudge or two towards the other end of the spectrum.
This would be a really good topic to build one of those quadrant charts where the X axis is American on one end and Germanic on the other, and the Y axis is small instrument on one end and large instrument on the other. If only we had a analytical Resident Genius with a penchant for these kind of things....![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Is it easier to make a "German"-style tuba sound more "American" through mouthpiece changes or is it easier to make an "American" sounding horn sound sound more Germanic? Obviously, the horn in question will have a lot to do with the sensitivity to mouthpiece changes. And obviously, there isn't going to be a major shift in the style of the instrument, just a nudge or two towards the other end of the spectrum.
This would be a really good topic to build one of those quadrant charts where the X axis is American on one end and Germanic on the other, and the Y axis is small instrument on one end and large instrument on the other. If only we had a analytical Resident Genius with a penchant for these kind of things....
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
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- circusboy
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Well, for one piece of anecdotal info, I much prefer an 'American style' funnel mouthpiece; it just works better for me. Yet I play on a very 'German style' horn.kingrob76 wrote:Ok, so here's (for me) a logical follow-up question:
Is it easier to make a "German"-style tuba sound more "American" through mouthpiece changes or is it easier to make an "American" sounding horn sound sound more Germanic? Obviously, the horn in question will have a lot to do with the sensitivity to mouthpiece changes. And obviously, there isn't going to be a major shift in the style of the instrument, just a nudge or two towards the other end of the spectrum.
The horn wins hands-down: German sound all the way.
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..double post... Sorry!
Last edited by MartyNeilan on Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Wyvern
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Re: Totally Kewl Topic!
For an English sound, listen to a recording of one of the top brass bands. I would say the English sound is rich and lyrical, but how much is the instruments and how much the style of playing, I do not know.tredonme wrote:Is there a third sound style? Is there an English sound?
An American friend listening to a recording of me playing my Melton 2040/5 (which is very much a German tuba) in a symphony orchestra, said I still sounded like solo EEb bass in a brass band
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Jonathan "who suspects the styles of playing are the biggest factor in the sound"
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which raises a question I've wanted to ask, but keep forgetting. Until now. Maybe.
Wow...what a cool ad over on the right side.
Oh...
For those who get to hear the Chicago gang live more than I, and have done so for more than a couple years...How does Gene sound on THE Yorks vs how Mr Jacob sounded? How about the Yorks vs his Yorkbrunner (does he even still have one?)
I once asked Gene how he liked the Yorks, and he said while it was a real gas to play them, maybe he wasn't crazy about the feel, as compared to his Ybrunner. That was many years ago, when he was comparatively new in Chicago still.
Wow...what a cool ad over on the right side.
Oh...
![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
For those who get to hear the Chicago gang live more than I, and have done so for more than a couple years...How does Gene sound on THE Yorks vs how Mr Jacob sounded? How about the Yorks vs his Yorkbrunner (does he even still have one?)
I once asked Gene how he liked the Yorks, and he said while it was a real gas to play them, maybe he wasn't crazy about the feel, as compared to his Ybrunner. That was many years ago, when he was comparatively new in Chicago still.
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tuben wrote:
[quote]I must disagree... German tubas are just as 'dark' sounding as American tubas. Listen to Walter Hilgers in the German Brass stuff and tell me that isn't dark! It's dark chocolate dark!
[/quote]
if you had gotten my entire post i AGREED by saying that my PT20PS, a german horn, was very dark as is the case with the tuba in German Brass. i love the group including his sound (personal favorite is their toccatta and fugue on the greatest hits CD. Great low brass sound)
those were my personal thoughts on the topic. if we're comparing american (ex. CSO yorks) to german (ex. german Kaisers like a large Rudy) you can get SIMILAR results. it's really like comparing apples to oranges.
lets just assume that the original poster is not talking about what kind of horn produces what sound but more along the lines of a sound concept. what is your definition of an American sound and a German sound? that was what my response was towards. the addition/anecdote about my horn being german and producing an american sound was more geared towards saying that you cannot base a sound concept behind the build of an instrument.
with this in mind, my original response still stands.
[quote]I must disagree... German tubas are just as 'dark' sounding as American tubas. Listen to Walter Hilgers in the German Brass stuff and tell me that isn't dark! It's dark chocolate dark!
[/quote]
if you had gotten my entire post i AGREED by saying that my PT20PS, a german horn, was very dark as is the case with the tuba in German Brass. i love the group including his sound (personal favorite is their toccatta and fugue on the greatest hits CD. Great low brass sound)
those were my personal thoughts on the topic. if we're comparing american (ex. CSO yorks) to german (ex. german Kaisers like a large Rudy) you can get SIMILAR results. it's really like comparing apples to oranges.
lets just assume that the original poster is not talking about what kind of horn produces what sound but more along the lines of a sound concept. what is your definition of an American sound and a German sound? that was what my response was towards. the addition/anecdote about my horn being german and producing an american sound was more geared towards saying that you cannot base a sound concept behind the build of an instrument.
with this in mind, my original response still stands.
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Listen to the early CSO brass quintet that is on Portrait of an Artist for the concept. The early recording of the NY Brass Quintet, with Harvey Phillips, reinforces the concept, but with a completely different sound.quinterbourne wrote:Someone, at some point, said something along the lines "American sound compliments, and German sound supplements, the trombone section"
Compare that with most quintets where the performer uses an F tuba, or a small C (like, say, a PT-4), and you'll hear the difference.
The recording of the CSO low brass section also makes the point. Jacobs is a distinct, deep, and different voice than the trombones, establishing contrast rather than extension. Whether any given approach works, of course, depends on the musicianship of the player.
I think deep is a better descriptor than dark. Tubas of the American concept, particularly the big ones, are deep and present, with lots of resonance. When Mike Sanders switched from his Alex to his Yorkbrunner, his sound gained a presence and even a friendly character. It was always heard without being overpowering or disproportionate. His Alexander was forbidding and foreboding. You didn't mess with that sound. It penetrated rather than being present. It was as if the room accepted the York sound, while the Alex pushed the sound into the room. I can still hear it in my head 20-odd years later.
As Alex says, big Holtons are powerful and command a certain respect. But they still exercise that power within the framework of filling the room rather than pushing sound into it. Even listening to recordings of my own playing in a group, my Holton is still more present than penetrating.
The York Master is German, but not completely so. Of course, these are ideals and the range of instruments is spread between. And the axis from German to American is certainly not the only axis, and German vs. American are not the only poles.
Rick "who would like to conduct the test again, adding the Holton and the Martin to the comparison" Denney
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The tricky bit is determining the units on those axes. So far, it seems to defy quantification.kingrob76 wrote:This would be a really good topic to build one of those quadrant charts where the X axis is American on one end and Germanic on the other, and the Y axis is small instrument on one end and large instrument on the other. If only we had a analytical Resident Genius with a penchant for these kind of things....
Rick "who doesn't have a clue" Denney
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Jacobs sounded like Jacobs, and Gene sounds like Gene. Jacobs was more florid in his musical interpretation, which was a characteristic of his time. Gene is more restrained and precise, at least to my ears. Both are examples of the highest degree of musicianship.eupher61 wrote:How does Gene sound on THE Yorks vs how Mr Jacob sounded?
Listen to his CD's--all the tracks sound like Gene but it's not always obvious which instrument he is using. You almost have to be there in person to feel the difference in the instruments.
Rick "who heard Jacobs live with the CSO only once, but it was Mahler's 5th" Denney
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I don't really agree. I think it's reasonable to compare the instruments tuba players have used in the same setting. The Alex 163 was widely used in orchestras (and is still used by many). The alternative for many who switches was a Yorkophone. They clearly thought the Yorkophone was to be used for the same purpose as the 163, even though the 163 is smaller. It may be that for the orchestral application, size (or width) is part of the American concept.tuben wrote:...
Since there are precious few truely 6/4 German rotary tubas (especially CC tubas) in America, perhaps we should agree to limit this discussion to tubas of the same basic size.
I'm willing to bet that most people are thinking:
American tuba sound = 6/4 York-clone
German tuba sound = 4/4 rotary (Mira 186, MW 32, RM 3/4)
Mike Sanders said the challenge when he switched to the Yorkbrunner was to relax and let the horn do the work. That is also a characteristic of a big tuba. And he said that his Alex would do anything, but the player had to make it happen. That may be what makes the sound of the Yorkophone seem friendlier than the sound of the Alex--it has less force but more flow.
For chamber applications, few would follow Jacobs's example and use a Yorkophone. But one can still hear the difference between, say, a Conn 56J or a PT-606 and a Miraphone 186 or RM 3/4. The 56J and the PT-606 are as different as they can be, but are still a more present sound than the penetration of the 186 or the RM (which are also as different as can be).
Rick "thinking the players bring different concepts to the instruments, and choose instruments accordingly" Denney
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Booyah. That's how I always thought of it, just couldn't explain it that well.bloke wrote:It's really pretty easy to understand:
Compare two electric bass/keyboard combo amplifiers - both very high quality:
- one is equipped with a 12 inch speaker driven by 60 watts peak power
- the other has two 15 inch speakers driven by 200 watts peak power.
___________________________________________________
Turn the 60-watt amp up to "7" and turn the 200-watt amp up to "3"...so that they are kicking out the same number of decibels.
Which one might be offering a "richer" sound...??
Which one might be offering a "clearer" sound...??
13. The bloke is wise...
EEb
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Does anyone have any thoughts on how they sound together in the same ensemble, as far as mixing the horns? Some thoughts I have and some experience that I have is that mixing them can be a challenge sometimes. In one of the bands that I play in, we used to play with two MW-25's and a 186 BBb. (Very much alike in my opinion) All three horns seemed to blend well together. The 186 player switched to a Holton Harvy Phillips CC, it has become much more of a challenge to find that common ground. When I play my Reynolds recording bass, in another group I play with, it sounds great, very much what has been described as an "American" sound. It blends very well with the YBB321 that another player has. I think that the 321 also has an American sound. Howerver if I try to play my Reynolds alongside another MW-25, I have problems. So much so, that If I am going to play with the fellow that has the 25, I make sure that I bring mine also, and leave the Reynolds for other gigs. I really enjoy this thread, thanks for all the posts.
Steve
Steve
MW-25, 2-Reynolds 170 (BBb Recording Bass), Reynolds 180 (EEb Recording Bass) , 2-Reynolds 140 Sousaphones, Holton 350, others.....