Definition of Difference between German & American

[The Jackson]

I can dig what you mean by that. Ha, it's really funny, all the time in band class, my director is telling the brass to play with an "O" vowel sound. I'm playing a 186, and it feels really unnatural. My embouchure has to go all funny and it feels like the horn and I are fighting.

I really like your view on the difference in timbre

[windshieldbug]

So what vowel sound to Japanese tubas use?

[Rick Denney]

German style tubas have an 'ah', soft A sound.

Is that with or without an umlaut?

Rick "always getting that confused" Denney

[ai698]

Ah!!!



Oh!!



Oops, you we talking tubas, my bad.

[imperialbari]

So what vowel sound to Japanese tubas use?

When playing German style instruments they think of the Japanese word for Haubitze.

When playing US style instruments they think of the Japanese word for bazooka.

When playing Japanese instruments they feel like doing harakiri.

K

[ZNC Dandy]

I would agree with the designations so far. I will also add that British tubas, Besson EEb's is particular, have an extremely versatile and malleable sound. The can sound like a York, or an Alexander depending on what the player wishes. I would say though, that to my ear, they lean more towards the Alexander (German) sound. Clean, compact, and cutting. Which is why I want one! That and the fact its the most practical thing for me to own right now.

[Wyvern]

The can sound like a York, or an Alexander depending on what the player wishes. I would say though, that to my ear, they lean more towards the Alexander (German) sound. Clean, compact, and cutting. Which is why I want one!

I would say that depends on the bell size. The old Imperial with 15" bell are more compact and cutting. With the 19" bell Besson Eb's are definitely more American sounding to my ears.

British Eb's are certainly adaptable, but Zach, I thought you were into BAT's?

Jonathan "who sort of sees what Robert is getting at"

[adam0408]

I can dig what you mean by that. Ha, it's really funny, all the time in band class, my director is telling the brass to play with an "O" vowel sound. I'm playing a 186, and it feels really unnatural. My embouchure has to go all funny and it feels like the horn and I are fighting.

I really like your view on the difference in timbre

Mmm. Sorry. I don't think that is what the op was trying to say.

I don't mean to be a stickler, but what happens inside your mouth has nothing to do with the horn.

If your embouchure "goes all funny" like you said, it is probably due to the fact that you are either playing wrong, or you have a faulty concept of what your director is trying to get you to do.

Syllables are a simple way to get the inside of your mouth and throat to do complex things. Teachers can tell you to "open your throat," or tell you to move specific muscles until they are blue in the face and it doesn't make much sense. A syllable like OH or Whoa is much more practical, and the same result is achieved. If you play with an EEE syllable in your mouth in the low and middle range (high range is a different story) your resulting tone will be pinched and thin.

All of the above advice was meant with the best possible intentions and love. I hope I helped you.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I don't mean to be a stickler, but what happens inside your mouth has nothing to do with the horn.

I'm not so sure about this. While I have no applicable proof, I believe the general shape of the oral cavity directly influences the tone.

Indeed it does -- you can get some "interesting" effects that way (try it!).

[adam0408]

I don't mean to be a stickler, but what happens inside your mouth has nothing to do with the horn.

I'm not so sure about this. While I have no applicable proof, I believe the general shape of the oral cavity directly influences the tone.

In my line of work, it is a proven fact that the tone of reed pipes (vibrating metal reed) can be impacted by the chest they sit on. If the reed is the embochure, the resonator the horn and the chest an oral cavity it would be the same. Depending on the chest, a sympathetic vibration can be created between the chest and the reed/resonator. Usually, this is a challenge for us to eliminate, but it proves a concept that factors before the embochure can influence the tone.

Robert Coulter

My whole point was that the poster seemingly was misunderstanding a concept of "open" sound, not that the sound cannot be affected by embouchure and instrument choice.

I for one, do not play with an eee syllables on the Swiss F I play on, ah syllables on an american BBb, and OOO syllables on my German CC.

The horn may produce those different sounds (ah as opposed to oh), but what I do inside my mouth doesn't really change.

[MaryAnn]

So what vowel sound to Japanese tubas use?

When playing German style instruments they think of the Japanese word for Haubitze.

When playing US style instruments they think of the Japanese word for bazooka.

When playing Japanese instruments they feel like doing harakiri.

K

MA

[OldsRecording]

I was going to make a silly comment regarding stereotypes and nationalities, but I remember reading numerous threads having to do with American horns sounding better with funnel-shaped mouthpieces and German horns sounding better with bowl-shaped 'pieces, and I was wondering if there was any correlation between 'piece design and the 'vowel-sound' in question. Just a thought.

[Rick Denney]

I was going to make a silly comment regarding stereotypes and nationalities, but I remember reading numerous threads having to do with American horns sounding better with funnel-shaped mouthpieces and German horns sounding better with bowl-shaped 'pieces, and I was wondering if there was any correlation between 'piece design and the 'vowel-sound' in question. Just a thought.

I'm using more of a bowl shape mouthpiece on my Holton. And I have in the past routinely used Helleberg-shaped mouthpiece of various descriptions on my Miraphone (including the Miraphone Rose Orchestra). The York Master, which is sort of a hybrid of German and American concepts (tending to the American), works best with a large Helleberg-style cup. I don't think I can generalize based on my experiences.

Yet I think I get what Robert is saying. It is not a matter of having an "out-there" or "in your face" sound versus a "closed" or "muffled" sound. The E sound can be closed and muffled, or open and powerful, depending on the instrument and the player. Ditto the O sound, which can be bright to the point of edgy, even with a big tuba, and still resemble an O sound. It's more an impression than an obvious characteristic.

But I think the description is closely related to the notion that the German sound emerges from the desire to blend with the trombones while the American sound emerges more from the desire to create an independent voice. And I also think it's consistent with Dale's notion that the German sound is more columnar while the American sound is more blossomy.

And, of course, these tendencies are related to design, not country of origin. The concepts are categorized as German and American largely because of the archetypes used to demonstrate them. A York, Holton or vintage Conn, or even a modern King 2341, is clearly consistent with the American concept. But so are several instruments made in Europe, including the Yorkbrunner, the Nirschl, and several of the Meinl-Westons. And the Alexander was the archetype of the German sound. Some Miraphones also fall into that camp, despite being utterly different from Alexanders.

It is also true that the instruments support the sound concepts of many of their proponents. Many German players prefer the role of being the bass of the brass, so they foster the blend with the trombones in the sound they try to produce and the mouthpiece they choose, etc. Jacobs would never have thought of himself only as the bass of the brass, but rather as an independent color instrument used as often to contrast with the strings as to support a brass harmonic structure. I hear very different tuba playing in those 50's Reiner CSO recordings than I do in recordings of similar vintage from Berlin or Vienna.

Rick "thinking 'round' and 'mellow' are not synonyms" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

Placement of the oral cavity is important whatever tuba you are playing, I think we can all agree. So, does one horn, or player, project a more characteristic sound forming one or the other vowels behind his/her embouchre?

Could be, but it doesn't get there for me.

Maybe it's better just to find your ideal target sound and emulate.

German -- "grok" recordings of Chester Schmitz, Mike Thornton or Ron Bishop, all of whom are/were blowing on Alex 163's.

American -- I'd say Arnold Jacobs or Gene Pokorny are probably good targets.

But just because you play a 163 or PT-6 doesn't mean you can't learn a hell of a lot from Jake! Or any of the wonderful players out there today.

[Chuck Jackson]

HOLY SMOKES!!!!!!

If ever a thread needed some pictures of food, this is it.

Chuck"thinkin' it's the tuba, not world peace or rocket science"Jackson

[adam0408]

Ok, just so we are ALL clear here I edited the original post....
When I meant the 'vowel' of the tone, I did not mean the concept of the player, NOR the shape of his mouth....

I meant the vowel of the tone of the tuba. Sing a note with an ah vowel and then a note with an O vowel and you'll know what I mean.

RC

I am truly sorry that I directed your thread down the toilet. Honestly. Now here is another amusing picture. I hope you get better responses soon.