Trombone doubling help

[mceuph]

For other euphers who double on trombone but play euph as their primary instrument, has anyone encountered problems playing in the low range of the trombone? I can play full and in tune through the entire pedal register of the euphonium, but am having problems getting a good full pedal Bb on the bone. Mouthpieces are similar between both horns, but I just seem to be fighting the bone a lot more. Can also play substantially longer phrases on the euph, but seem to run out quickly on the bone. Any tips/suggestions for making the transition easier would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance,

Martin

[jeopardymaster]

Tom Klaber, bass trombonist with the Cleveland Orchestra, and I went to different high schools together, and then attended CCM together in the '70's. He is if anything better on euphonium than on trombone - i.e., absolutely phenomenal. I believe he'd tell you to just do what you have to do. For as long as I have known him, when he picked up a euphonium he simply played euphonium - and so with a trombone. Just do it.

[gregsundt]

There isn't enough info in your post to give a specific, helpful reply, except that a lesson or two with a good teacher, preferably one who doubles, would probably get you pointed in the right direction. I have found two generalities, though, that may be of help.

• The shift to pedal register on the trombone is more abrubt, both in sound and feel, than on euphonium. On euph, I just get the jaw down & forward, anchor on the top, and it's there. For the trombone, I find that a more downstream set, with reduced upper lip pressure, is better. A shallower cup intensifies the challenge. In any case, it takes more work to find the pedals and make them sound good.
  
  Make sure the mouthpiece is the same, or at least very similar. Cup depth is especially critical. If, for example, you play a 51D on euph and a 6 1/2 AL on trombone, you will have a lot of adjustments to make. I play a Bach 4G on bone, and a 52D on euph. When on occasion I switch to a 52 for trombone, it takes a couple of weeks to get adjusted to the shallower cup, with the pedal notes posing a particular challenge.

Concerning air, a large bore trombone always takes more air than the euphonium. Probably has to do with the resistance set up in the valve system. Listen to recordings of great trombone players, and notice how frequently they breathe. It isn't just you.

Again, I would advise you to get with a teacher who can observe your playing firsthand and make specific suggestions.

[pgiampi1]

Martin - I have the EXACT same problem in the pedal register.
I haven't played too much trombone as of late, but I always feel that my pedal register has sounded very ugly and harsh. The pedal Bb just sort of splats out. I will keep an eye on this thread...sorry I couldn't add anything constructive!

[Ryan_Beucke]

Yes, I had the same problems when I started doubling trombone from euph. Suddenly I couldn't play nearly as low as I could on the euphonium. It's because the blow is different. Not only is there less resistance (assuming this is a large bore horn), but the air acts differently. I think that there is less resistance, even though the bore of a large bore is actually smaller than a euphs, because it is a straight design. All of the bends in a euphonium give it a lot more air resistance. With euphonium, you're used to that much back pressure and you know how much air to use and how fast to use it to get the notes you want.

The best thing you can do is to play long tone exercises that extend your range lower and lower. Don't expect to just do something different and be able to play as low as you do on euph, you have to figure out the blow of each note and just try to make your range bigger each time. If you can effectively increase your range by one note each day, that'll be a big accomplishment.

Good luck, and remember that it's a different instrument despite the similar mouthpieces.

[tbn.al]

As a doubler I find the tbn/euph double much more difficult than the bass trombone/tuba double. I really think it has to do with bore, but I would defer to members who know more about the mechanics and physics of the instruments. I do know that that it take a heap more air to fill my bass trombone than my tuba and I run out a lot sooner. Also the pedal register pop you get on trombone is the nature of the beast. Most tromboninst rather enjoy it! It's part of the fun in playing an acoustic chain saw. Many an hour has been spent in numerous practice rooms across the land trying to get a pedal register than did not offend the conductor. Low register studies will help, but you will never get an acceptable, to most listeners, pedal register out of a .525 bore trombone with a 61/2 AL. It's just not designed to do that. Listen to Christian Lindberg playing the Vivaldi Spring. His pedals explode. If they weren't so in tune they would be downright ugly.

[J.c. Sherman]

Talk about varied opinions!

My bread an butter comes from being the cat in town who plays the weird $#!+. Euph, Contrabass trombone, bass trumpet, etc., as well as tuba, bass, and tenor trombones.

Word from the wise - they are all different. And proficiency on one doesn't translate in the slightest to proficiency on another. For me, there are a few rules.

1) Do not share mouthpieces. No two instruments should use the same mouthpiece save as a result of a freak of nature. Euphs and Bones aren't similar at all, and use different mouthpieces. Likewise bass and tenor trombone. After all, they're in the same in key, why not?; no one would, so why share mouthpieces with Euph and bone, just because they're both Bb?

2) Warm up as a trombonist on the trombone. Gliss to different notes, tune with the slide, natural slurs... you get the idea. It's as different as guitar and violin. On your euph, warm up as a eupher.

3) Horns don't usually have "bad" registers, unless they're lousy horns. Trigger or no, pedals should pop, and the likely cause if they're not is air speed and direction. You cannot dither on a bone; you must be in the spot-on center of the horn. As valve players, the temptation is to play in tune, regardless of the slide inaccurracies. Not only does this hamper tone, but many bones are sharp in the pedal range, so we're fighting a loosing battle sharing positions.

4) Bones don't sound like euphs, nor should they. Pedals on bones have a very open, edgy timbre, whether on a .485 bore or a .578 bore. It's supposed to. If you sound "dark" or wooly, you're trying to play slide euph. There are many composers who capitolize on this regardless - look at Tosca's bone section; alternating pedals throughout the section. Puccini's bones were tiny-bore valve instruments!

5) Some bones are open, some are stuffy and resistant. Same with Euphs. And different trombones are maybe MORE varied in their construction and playing characteristics than Euphs. Especially Bass Trombones!

Oh, Tom Kalber is an excellent Eupher - I've sat next to him for many summers. Why? Because he's a good euphonium player. And he's a good Bass Bone player. And he'll tell you, they are totally different instruments, and he practices them separately and differently.

Off the soap box

J.c.S.

[tbn.al]

I wish I had this a few years ago when I was playing in a trombone choir that had me going down to pedal C's! I don't like it too much in my euph though.

I always grab my cheater, Bach 30E with the shank cut down from Eb to Bass Trombone, when I head out for a trombone choir gig. I'm sorry but the 60 is just not mobile enough for me in the pedal register. That little Eb MP is sweet though. It is not tubby at, all in fact brighter than my Shilke if anything. Glad to see someone else does it too. I'm used to getting blasted for perverting the bass trombone sound with a tuba MP, but I just do what I have to do to make it work.

[Jeff Miller]

Hey.

If you're still following this thread, can I just suggest that you think about 2 things when comparing the euph and trombone - air speed and firm corners.

I think the secret is getting the balance between these two right - and it differs for each instrument. It's fairly easy to allow yourself to get too floppy chop-wise in the bottom register - keep a fairly firm embouchure and then vary the air speed to colour the sound and work over any bumps as the register changes.

Works for me, anyway.

[PKeen]

J.C. nailed it on the head with his explaination.
Each instrument is its own animal and you have to treat them as such. Also there is a mouthpiece that goes with every horn and none of them are the same.
Conical vs. cylindrical are two different feelings on the face and in the response dept. Use the openness of bass trombone and large bore tenor to your advantage when playing conical. It takes less air, you don't have to overblow and you can phrase even longer.
Pedal notes have more edge on trombone and less on tuba and euphonium. FF pedals on a trombone are going to rattle.
Play your doubles back to back in your practice sessons to get the feel and the mental mindset that you're playing a different axe. Alex Iles, a great L.A. studio do it all player, came up with an idea of setting all his horns out and playing on each for 5 minutes. Try it with just two. If you don't play the horn correctly, it'll tell you real quick. Mine do. Back off on the air for euph, increase it through for baritone, relax the corners for bass trombone, center the tone more for alto trb and bass trumpet. Resign myself to the fact that tuba=oxygen deprivation. :cry:


Phil Keen
L.A. freelance
Another of those freak lip/multiple doublers