Bell-front horns in Orchestra

[scouterbill]

This discussion stirred a memory and I went back and checked. I have a video tape of Fantasia with Leopold Stokowsi and the Philadelphia Orchestra. In the opening sequence and first number (Toccata and fugue in D Minor) there is a smaller tuba ( F?, Eb?) and a sousaphone. Some of you guys can probably tell by the silhouette what these horns are. It appears that it is the real orchestra playing. Was the sousie used for visual effect or was it a regular part of this orchestra at that time?

[pigman]

Bill bell often used a 4v King sousaphone in the New York Philharmonic . In fact, he always said it was his favorite horn.
But does his opinion still count???

[NDSPTuba]

Every instrument has brand/type snobbery at the college/professional level. I know I had it bad when I was playing professionally as a French Horn player. If someone would of shown up to a gig playing a King,Reynolds,Olds, Holton, or insert your "student" model here, I would of immediately written them off as a player before they played a note. Completely ridiculous but true. I would have ( and still do a little bit ) looked at a bell front and or top valved tuba as a student model type of instrument and again written off the player before they played a note. To most a serious musician plays a serious instrument, and serious usually equates to cost and brand name.

[mammoth2ba]

.....a serious musician plays a serious instrument, and serious usually equates to cost and brand name.

I feel the opposite. Anybody with access to money (not necessarily musicians!) can buy a high-end horn for bling value, an especially perilous undertaking given the speed which new instruments fall out of favor. Check the archives to read how many horns the sun has risen and set on in a fairly short span of time.

I'm much more intrigued by an unusual instrument that's played well.

[The Big Ben]

Every instrument has brand/type snobbery at the college/professional level. I know I had it bad when I was playing professionally as a French Horn player. If someone would of shown up to a gig playing a King,Reynolds,Olds, Holton, or insert your "student" model here, I would of immediately written them off as a player before they played a note. Completely ridiculous but true. I would have ( and still do a little bit ) looked at a bell front and or top valved tuba as a student model type of instrument and again written off the player before they played a note. To most a serious musician plays a serious instrument, and serious usually equates to cost and brand name.

Remember this:

A.J. won an appointment to Curtis with a beat up, 4v Eb horn with the 4th valve taped down.

Bloke knows a fellow who won an audition for a major Army band with a plastic, 3v souzy and no fancy lessons.

Any of the true professionals on this board could take my 3v King and do their job and do it well. (Not that I'm suggesting it.)

If you look down on somebody because of their horn, you may just miss out on someone pretty good.

[windshieldbug]

The poll doesn't ask what I consider to be the important questions

I might not care to use one, but not because of how it would look at all, rather:

A. Will the directional bell give ME the the proper amount of aural feedback so that my balance and intonation won't SUFFER

B. Will MY visual acuity be impaired

Obviously, I don't care how I look visually to other people!

[Rick Denney]

Remember this:

A.J. won an appointment to Curtis with a beat up, 4v Eb horn with the 4th valve taped down.

Bloke knows a fellow who won an audition for a major Army band with a plastic, 3v souzy and no fancy lessons.

Any of the true professionals on this board could take my 3v King and do their job and do it well. (Not that I'm suggesting it.)

If you look down on somebody because of their horn, you may just miss out on someone pretty good.

I agree with your conclusion. Every time I've been tempted to think poorly of someone because of the instrument they play, I've had that handed back to me when it becomes obvious how much better they are than me.

We all have to realize that at the end of the day, it's what comes out of the bell that will or won't impress our fellow musicians.

But I also know that my fellow musicians don't know a Holton from a Jin Bao. They see my Holton's obvious experience, and think I must be short on cash. That's fine with me--I'd rather not have to live up to an instrument that looks like it cost $20K. I have on several occasions shown up with the Miraphone, and attracted oohs and ahs from others. "Wow! You have a Miraphone." They hear what they see.

BUT, let's not overstate Jacobs's accomplishment. There are a few notable facts that give some perspective to that story. One is that he was 15, trying out for a position at a newish and as-yet not completely established conservatory. They knew he didn't have a good tuba, but that's not what they were evaluating. It was also during the Depression, when nobody could afford much of anything, and making a substandard piece of equipment work well drew more respect than it would now. Even now, if a 15-year-old came to a performing arts high school to audition, the teachers there would be listening for the musician, not listening to the instrument.

That's utterly different from auditioning for a gig, where the focus (at least during the screened audition) is on the product not the person.

Bloke has described successfully executing high-end gigs using his CC helicon. He's also been asked not to bring it a time or two. People hear what they see. They can tell from the satin silver and gold points that the helicon is a high-end instrument, but the shape of it does sometimes affect their perspective.

My issue with a forward bell is that I'm not sure I could live up the assumption that I could play it well enough. Tuba sound benefits from multi-path reverberation, and a forward bell changes the mix of direct sound with reflected sound. That change is not always favorable. Outdoors, there is no reflected sound so being able to direct it is a survival move. But in a hall, having the bell pointed right at the audience might reveal more truth than I care for them to hear.

Rick "seeing both sides" Denney

[Wyvern]

I think this is all a matter of being perceived as 'professional'. If a workman turned up at your house without what is considered professional equipment you would doubt his professionalism.

It is the same with a tuba - if you turn up at an orchestra with a bell front people will doubt you and at least think you rather eccentric. If you then play like a god, the equipment will be forgotten and you will be accepted, but if your performance is only average you will be considered inferior to another tubist of similar standard with the accepted 'professional' equipment.

It is human nature - we go initially by appearance and then have to be really jolted to change our opinion.

[NDSPTuba]

.....a serious musician plays a serious instrument, and serious usually equates to cost and brand name.

I feel the opposite. Anybody with access to money (not necessarily musicians!) can buy a high-end horn for bling value, an especially perilous undertaking given the speed which new instruments fall out of favor. Check the archives to read how many horns the sun has risen and set on in a fairly short span of time.

I'm much more intrigued by an unusual instrument that's played well.

Mind you, I'm not saying it is right to think that way. But the reality is, it is expected.

In my years that I played for a living, I can count on one hand the number of people with great equipment and so so abilities. Conversely I can count on one hand the number of good players that used so so equipment. It is a matter of fitting in, really. To be the part and get the part, you have to act the part. You have to present the image that they expect to see.

Is it fair, No. Is it reasonable, not really. But it is a reality.

[CTAYLOR]

This is really interesting to me.

Do you remember what the rep was? That was back when I was in college, and I frequently went to the Houston Symphony during that time. I do not recall Dave Kirk or anyone else doing that. I didn't go every weekend, but I usually tried to go whenever there was a tuba-friendly work programmed. I would have certainly remembered if that had happened.[/quote]

I don't remember exactly what year it was but I will try and see if I still have the program somewhere

[windshieldbug]

They knew he didn't have a good tuba, but that's not what they were evaluating

When you are auditioning for a school, the question is not, contrary to popular belief, "How good are you?".

It is, rather, "Are you teachable BY US?" and "What signs do we see that you CAN LEARN?"

Two very different viewpoints (perfect or teachable). Yes, you should endeavor to do the absolute best you can to prove the latter. But keep your mind open, not closed for the former.

[Steve Marcus]

The first tuba that I owned was a Conn 24J 4-valve BBb. It served me fine in concert band.

But then I ventured into the world of British-type brass bands. For a short time, I played that horn with the Illinois Brass Band. It was early in their history and they tolerated the bell front horn because they really needed a BBb Bass at that time.

The only concert that I played with IBB that year was guest conducted by Michael Mulcahy. Just before the concert, he checked tuning on each individual's horn. When he turned to me--and looked at my big bell-front horn--he just passed on to the next player without hearing a note from the Conn. I felt humiliated.

A couple of years later, I gave the 24J semi-legitimacy by having acquired an upright bell for it, effectively morphing the horn into a 25J. Some younger players would ask, "Is that a 6/4 tuba?" But just as often, I would get kidded about the "trash bin" appearance of the horn with its 24" bell. BrianF, Rex Martin, David Fedderly, and others will remember that I played that horn for Mr. Jacobs in his final Master Class at Northwestern University in the summer of 1998. Oh, that memory is somewhat embarrassing...but Mr. Jacobs was cool about it. In fact, it was he who frequently stated that it didn't matter what equipment you used or, for that matter, where you placed the mouthpiece on your mouth (or your ear, he quipped), as long as it sounded good.

Subsequently, I sold the 25J to help me pay for my Nirschl 4/4 CC tuba. That horn, plus a more recently acquired Besson 983 bass tuba, serve me well for "straight"/"legit" playing in orchestras, quintets, etc. I also covered the BBb Bass part on my Nirschl in Chicago Brass Band. I love playing both of those horns, but...

the elephant wrote:

I would love to own a big, fat Conn for Dixie work. But I would not use it for anything else most likely.

Recently, I acquired a Conn 20J (forward bell 3-banger). The privileged notes actually play more clearly than the corresponding pitches on my 24J/25J 4-valve tuba. I look forward to every opportunity to play Dixie/trad jazz engagements because this big beast speaks so easily and is so much fun to play. The members of every Dixie band with which I've played have expressed a preference for the Conn 20J for that genre of music. Indeed, I don't use the 20J with any other ensembles.

enigma asked:

To add another question then, for anyone with a horn with both upright AND front bells:

1). What are the playing differences?
2). Do conductors or band/orchestra members care??
3). Do you go to stereotype and reserve the forward bell for outside gigs?

1. The 20J does speak very easily. But its tone color is not appropriate for other types of music besides Dixie/trad jazz. The Nirschl CC and the Besson 983 Eb offer much more control of tone color, dynamics, articulation, etc. to match the ensembles and musical requirements. For instance, I couldn't even imagine playing something like Ein Heldenleben with a big bell-front in this day and age with many more fine concert tubas available than what were available in William Bell's day.

2. See my story above re: Michael Mulcahy.

3. It's not exclusively for outdoor performances. I use the 20J for indoor Dixie/trad jazz gigs and it fits in well.

[J.c. Sherman]

I can sympathize (sp?). When I sold (waaaaahhhh!) my king rotary BBb bell-front, I bought a Buescher 3 valver recording, still for outdoor bands, dixieland and early jazz. But it's valves were atrocious, though it sounded wonderful. So I sold it and got a King 3v BBb recording/bell up horn.

It's really a good one. I've used the bell front as I always have, and even use it for a laugh in quintet concerts (audience loves being barked at with it for humor). On our most recent album, I recorded the "jazz tracks" with it. With the upright bell, I've used it to sub for Brass Bands so I don't have to transpose.

It's just a good tuba, one of the best of this style. With a tuning slide move on the first so I can pull for C and B, it's really more useful than I had planned.

But I would never take it into the orchestra, or even the pit. 3 valves?!? Bell Front?!? I'd never be hired again.

Oh - I also own a mid 20s Eb recording King, solid bell. It's the smallest tuba I've ever seen; it looks just slightly bigger than their bell-front euphs. Call it my "tubists cimbasso," should my actual cimbasso be rejected. But the Opera would have a harder time firing me for that...

J.c.S.

[The Big Ben]

The only concert that I played with IBB that year was guest conducted by Michael Mulcahy. Just before the concert, he checked tuning on each individual's horn. When he turned to me--and looked at my big bell-front horn--he just passed on to the next player without hearing a note from the Conn. I felt humiliated.

A couple of years later, I gave the 24J semi-legitimacy by having acquired an upright bell for it, effectively morphing the horn into a 25J. Some younger players would ask, "Is that a 6/4 tuba?" But just as often, I would get kidded about the "trash bin" appearance of the horn with its 24" bell. BrianF, Rex Martin, David Fedderly, and others will remember that I played that horn for Mr. Jacobs in his final Master Class at Northwestern University in the summer of 1998. Oh, that memory is somewhat embarrassing...but Mr. Jacobs was cool about it. In fact, it was he who frequently stated that it didn't matter what equipment you used or, for that matter, where you placed the mouthpiece on your mouth (or your ear, he quipped), as long as it sounded good.

Mulcahy = ***. I don't even know him and think he's an ***. A conductor's job is to make the group sound good. Not tuning one of the members because you don't like the horn he is playing is wrong. He's probably a pompous @@@@@, too.

Jacobs = good. You were lucky to get a lesson from The Man. He realized that the tone coming out of your 25J is what mattered.

[J.c. Sherman]

I think it best to refrain from name-calling, especially if you do not know someone personnally - World dictators, and convicted mass murderers excepted...

J.c.S.

[TubaRay]

Mulcahy = ***. I don't even know him and think he's an ***. A conductor's job is to make the group sound good. Not tuning one of the members because you don't like the horn he is playing is wrong. He's probably a pompous @@@@@, too.

I've gotta agree with this statement. I believe I can understand what he was thinking, but he was still just being a jerk. And, yes, I see your response, J.C.S., but I find it difficult to defend the guy's actions. And actions give us some indication as to what type of person one is. There was no need to humiliate anyone.

[Sylvano]

Interesting responses.

Seems like there is a LOT of tuba-snobbery around.
Guess it's no different to the Bb Vs C nonsense (but let's not get into that).

To add another question then, for anyone with a horn with both upright AND front bells:

1). What are the playing differences?
2). Do conductors or band/orchestra members care??
3). Do you go to stereotype and reserve the forward bell for outside gigs?

Six years ago, I got a deal on eBay (back when there were great deals) and bought a silver King Bb 4 valves with a recording bell.
About a month later another listing said "Tuba" with a fuzzy photo. Not much description but I recognized it as a silver 3 valve King Bb with the 22" upright bell. $212 is what I paid for that horn. Now I had both bells.

I used the recording bell on many occasions in the orchestra. One of the hall we used had no shell over the stage and my sound would stay in the "box" and absorbed by the curtains. The front bell worked great. I never had bad comments from the conductor or other player. The other occasions were outdoor concerts. It made a difference while playing 1812 at the Fort.

The big problem was not being able to rest the horn on its bell and having to lay it down.

I wish I still had the bell actually. I ended up selling the 3v King with the recording bell to Sam Gnagey who used it for his projects.

As for C vs Bb, some stuff is easier on Bb, some is easier on C. I play whatever works better. I don't hear trumpet players say "Oh he's playing a Bb trumpet, he must not be serious about playing..." Come on, they switch horns left and right, play D parts on C, C parts on Bb, etc.

When my wife asks why I have so many tubas, I just point out the trumpet players collection of instruments. As many, just smaller and cheaper.

Cheers!

[josh_kaprun]

If you sound good, no one will question what kind of a horn you are playing.

On a related note, I really have a problem with "No way I'd be seen dead with one - bet it's Bb or Eb too!" being a choice in the poll. Honestly, I have never had a single non-tuba player question me about what key my horn was in and don't think that I ever will. If you sound good, no one (other than other tuba players...which constitute a very small percentage of the people who will hear you play if you make it into the "professional" world) cares what you play.

[mammoth2ba]

One conductor I played for _preferred_ the sound of my recording bell in concert band, and was amazed to hear they'd essentially gone out-of-production. That same (trombone-playing) conductor's own experience in a midwest college band (1970's) was playing with a fleet of bellfront Conns.

Recently I joined another band that rehearses in a room with lots of appropriate reflectors, but performs on a stage with no (or minimal) shell. The tubas are surrounded by wings with heavy curtains and high flyspace. The conductor would often ask "more tuba" in onstage reheasals. After hearing recordings of a couple of those performances, I decided to take my Conn 2xJ with recording bell. During a short break midway through rehearsal, I asked the conductor what he thought of the bellfront's sound?

"I love it," was his response. I found it easier to play at the volume he wanted during the performance, and he was happy with the tuba section's presence (three sectionmates play uprights).

A tuba professor mentioned to me recently that orchestras have been playing progressively louder over the past decades, and he wondered if that hasn't contributed to increased frequency of embouchure problems among tubists? If one tuba is to support ever-increasing orchestral volume levels, appropriate use of a recording bell might potentially save a lot of lips.

[J.c. Sherman]

I'll try to get a pic of the mini-recording Eb soon...

I agree with the statement that recording bells could be very effective in the right hall. I personally don't have much bias against them, but I have to deal with collegues, and they'd never go for it except in the outdoor park concerts I play without a shell. Works great for that.

We may indeed be progressing to a too-loud state in most orchestras. And we get equipment - all brass players - to deal with this reality. Perhaps it's time to bring bell-fronts to the fore! If this happens, I'll REALLY kick myself for selling my rotary King BBb.

J.c.S.