Don't go into music!!!

The bulk of the musical talk
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JCalkin
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Post by JCalkin »

bloke wrote:- I've never met Ms. Carol Jantsch.
- I've heard sound clips and KNOW that this person is an extraordinary musician and technician...clearly among the top of the field.
- As an added factor, I REALLY respect the playing of this person EVEN MORE because I don't personally find the PT6 tubas to be particularly great instruments.

All of that being said with sincerity, I believe it was a superb move for the Philadelphia Orchestra to hire this person. This hire combined youth, energy, musical/technical strength, novelty, and - attached to the novelty - hundreds-upon-hundreds of broadcast, print, and internet articles regarding this hire - bringing untold millions of dollars worth of free positive publicity to the Philadelphia Orchestra which CERTAINLY (without me having any way to verify this) transferred to significant increased endowments and attendance.

There are very few, however, who have as much to bring to the table as Ms. Carol Jantsch.
I agree with you completely. The reason I mentioned Ms. Jantsch is b/c it adds fuel to the fire of every aspiring pro that truly believes they can reach the pinnacle of tuba blowing right out of college without paying any dues.

She's an amazing musician, and the exception to the rule. She can't be used to justify young players' feelings that they are entitled to the best b/c they hold a shiny new degree, and I've heard some younger folks teetering far too close to the edge of that slippery slope.
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Post by Todd S. Malicoate »

CATransplant wrote:Professionals play for the pleasure and for money.
the elephant wrote:I have never played for the pleasure of the money and it is that attitude and assumption that pisses me off.
What a difference two little words make...
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Post by Rick Denney »

the elephant wrote:
CATransplant wrote:Moreover, those who play in [non-paying groups] are playing because they love to play, love the music they're playing, and for only those reasons.
So many hobbyist players very strongly imply that their love for the music is somehow "more pure" because it lacks the "filthy lucre" aspect.

FALLACY!
Since I'm catching you in a calm mood, I'll weigh in, heh, heh.

I would never have made it as a professional musician. I simply don't love it enough to play all those damn scales every day. I wouldn't have put in the time necessary to develop fundamental skills.

Frankly, I don't (and didn't) put that kind of passion into engineering.

The reason is: I didn't have to. The engineering stuff just came to me. I didn't have to beat my head against the wall over it, and the time I spent digging into aspects of it didn't seem like work. It was something I could commit to without needing passion--it was built in.

Those who think playing scales and sitting in front of Arban's for hours every day are like beating their heads against the wall, and those for whom many aspects of music seems like work, are the ones who really need to ponder their future. Those who can practice hours every day and maintain a commitment to it year after year are the only ones who have a hope--just a hope--of being successful at it.

That's what I would tell young'uns who are pondering their futures as musicians--or engineers. They guys who went into engineering just for the money, even if they are competent, are conspicuous among real engineers.

Bloke comes across as almost mercenary, but do not be fooled. He spent hours every day, even before he was a tuba player, practicing every style of guitar playing, including classical. He didn't do that just for lucre, filthy or otherwise. He did it because it didn't seem like work.

BUT (and you knew there would be a BUT), there is something to be said in favor of amateurs, and there are enough truly jaded professionals to verify its existence. Amateurs answer only to themselves, with no hope of financial reward. For them, the challenge is to suck as little as possible given that this week there is NO opportunity to practice. Why do it? The reason is that we amateurs are compelled by music at some level that is good for us. We may even be passionate about it. But we are not compelled by it enough to truly commit to it.

And we all know jaded professionals for whom that passion or compulsion has bled away leaving only habit or perhaps the need for a paycheck. Believe me, that happens to engineers, too. There are musicians who retire from a good military career, for example, who never pick up their instrument again afterwards.

When I was in college, I photographed weddings and did other photographic gigs for spare money. I was good at it, and doing it drove me. It was not far from my first college major (architecture) and I saw it all as related. But I quickly became jaded, and it wasn't until some years later that I could start making photographs again just for the joy of it. In that case, I needed to be an amateur, though I had already proven myself competent as a professional. It was the daily assignments from others I couldn't sustain, and I ran out of things to say trying to follow my assignments from myself. There was (and still is) passion, but commitment eluded me.

No matter what you do, youthful passion and compulsion has to give away to adult commitment, and being committed also means deciding to be happy about it. Few adults never have to face that challenge.

Rick "thinking love is more about commitment than passion" Denney
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Post by Peach »

Wade has said he's never played for the pleasure of the money and I can only assume he's being truthful.

I will openly say that I've played works/concerts where THE primary thing getting me through the gig is the knowledge of a few quid at the end of it (I don't usually play for money and when I do it's never a big paycheck).

Having said that, I've played in enough amatuer groups where the only thing keeping me from walking out is the agreement I've made with the fixer to play. Honour is a biggie. Plus I supose you never know who's listening...

Can anyone think of a situation where you'd not show for a performance - or even walking out on a show?
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Post by Ted Cox »

It's interesting to see the range of reactions to whether or not someone should pursue making their living from music. There are three questions we must ask ourselves. 1) What do you want? 2) What's it worth to you? 3) What are you prepared to do about it? My experience has taught me that as young people, we find we are pretty good at something and we find our identity, acceptance from others and self-esteem, in this instance, through music. Unfortunately, we derive our sense of worth through performing. If you perform well, you are worthy; if you fail to perform well, you are worthless. We become driven to perform better and better in order to validate ourselves. When we do not value ourselves, we need others to value us and we place our worth in other people's hands, turning our personal power over to someone else. One way you can know if you are doing this is if you are trying to prove yourself to others. If you are, then you probably need to re-examine what you truly want.

There are so many schools now where you can earn a degree in music and so many tuba teachers needing students to justify their existence. The level of playing is amazing to witness and there seems to be no end to the virtuosity. There are just so many jobs available to someone in a very small window of time. How long can you wait to win a job that so many people are competing for? It's so personal the choice to make your living at anything. Don't turn your personal power over to anyone and don't let anyone else write the story of your life. Courage means to follow your heart and only you know what's in your heart. Go back to the three questions I posed and figure out what you're going to do about it, commit and don't look back.
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Post by tubasinfonian »

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Post by k001k47 »

tubasinfonian wrote:

My point has been completely missed...

Americans are so consumed in their material STUFF to know what they NEED and what they just THINK they need.

We are far too dependent on crap. I am of the belief that if you have more stuff then a suitcase of clothes and a bag of personal belongings, then you have too much STUFF.

Make wage as you need to continue to live, but to sit complain about not having enough money to live a good life, or that "American Dream" is rediculous... The American Dream doesn't exist folks, and money is worthless.

I feel sorry for those who feel differently, because quite certainly you are living much less happily than my wife and I are. I wish you well.
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Post by tubasinfonian »

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Post by pulseczar »

thank you wade for your insight. For us young turks, it's a wake up call.

Sinfonian, good luck. I don't know what kinda life you lead, but ****. If the only thing you can care about is making music, by all means, go for it. You live a life only the rest of us can imagine.
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Post by Leland »

Rick Denney wrote:Frankly, I don't (and didn't) put that kind of passion into engineering.

The reason is: I didn't have to. The engineering stuff just came to me. I didn't have to beat my head against the wall over it, and the time I spent digging into aspects of it didn't seem like work. It was something I could commit to without needing passion--it was built in.

Those who think playing scales and sitting in front of Arban's for hours every day are like beating their heads against the wall, and those for whom many aspects of music seems like work, are the ones who really need to ponder their future. Those who can practice hours every day and maintain a commitment to it year after year are the only ones who have a hope--just a hope--of being successful at it.
Ah, interesting.

I've only been earning a living through music for eight years, so whether I'm "successful" or not is still up in the air.

But, I play because of how you describe your path into engineering -- it doesn't feel like work. It's just what I do, and I feel really lucky to have landed a steady gig, playing a particular flavor of music that I enjoy playing.

Am I jaded? Maybe. I listen to a lot less music in my free time than I used to. That could be partly because of changing to a newer car -- it's an odd excuse, but my last car had a rockin' sound system, and the still-stock stereo on the new car just doesn't do justice to the music I like to hear, so I mostly listen to news and NPR.

The non-musical side of my job sometimes feels like work, but at least it's partially related to music. I don't feel like complaining much, either, because I'd think that pretty much any office job will feel the same way.

Has it put a dent in my amateur/community playing? I think so. After hammering on the horn all week, performing at least two evenings a week during the summer and numerous times the rest of the year (up to six days a week, two or three times a day), I want to take whatever breaks I can.

To the question, "Should I go into music?", I'd respond with, "If you have to ask, then for your own health & sanity, you'd better not." That doesn't mean that you can't play for fun or really give the pro gig a shot for a few years, of course. But, if you really think you can put all your eggs in the musical basket -- if you think you can rely on it to give you a roof & food -- it simply has to be part of who you are.
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Post by Brassworks 4 »

While on tour doing a few evening concerts in a University town (school to remain nameless) the Music Department Chair asked if we'd give an hour seminar to the music majors, talking primarily on what its like to be professional musicians (touring, recording, teaching, etc)

He then told us he can't pay us - but it would be good for his students nonetheless.

We told him we'd love to give them an hour seminar titled: "Why NOT to go in to Music: Techniques on a Volunteer Career"

Needless to say we had the afternoon off.
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Post by NDSPTuba »

I'm going to weigh in on the self perpetuating thread, because my horn professor in school told me something about this very thing. I had made a comment about how one particular player shouldn't waste their time continuing on the performance path because they didn't have it. He had many problems with his playing and was working on his masters. Really nice guy though, lol. Anyway, my professor's response was, he wasn't going to tell something they couldn't and get proven wrong AGAIN. He had told a student that at one time, and the student went on to fix his problems and become quite a fine player AND won a gig with a name orchestra. And who was he to name himself judge, jury, and executioner of someones dream.

That could be motivation for some to not tell "the truth" to some of their students, and not the self perpetuating keep myself employed motive.
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Post by MikeMason »

I think you all should pursue a performance career.That's more good used pro horns for me to pick from :D
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Post by windshieldbug »

Look at it this way: with so many people studying performance, the quality of orchestras has risen in the last hundred years to the point where the best of the best are musical people like Ms. Jantsch and Mr. Baer, for example.

And I recall Murray Panitz, who was principal flute in the Philadelphia Orchestra, recounting that when he first started it was normal for orchestra musicians to have summer jobs around Philly, just to get by. :shock:
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
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Post by Mojo workin' »

Our schools try to teach that in the US music is a high art. I have said ti before and I will say it now: THIS IS NOT EUROPE! CLASSICAL MUSIC IS NOT AN ART. IT IS A BUSINESS THAT PRODUCES AND SELLS ART! Pull your head down from the clouds and grow up, for Pete's sake!
Are we proud of this fact, though?




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:lol:


Quote:
And imported engineers are not a result of a lack in engineered degreed people in the US. It is MOSTLY because the pay for outsourced of "imported" engineers is much lower than that here.


I suppose it depends on your field--it may be true in part for something like software development. Your statement is NOT true in my field, which deals in the three-dimensional world. A large percentage of our new hires are recent immigrants from all over the place. We would definitely hire more American-born folks if there were any to hire.
Well, it looks like my deleted post had some truth to it after all.
Thus I say PISS OFF, my Brother Sinfonian
Dean, are you reading this? Are the hallowed words of Wade enjoying a different standard of scrutiny and post-worthiness than the rest of us?
I also get really tired of hearing people whine that pros ought not ever gripe about their jobs. sheesh. It is the JOBS, people; not some freaking fun-time activity engaged in to relieve stress after work. It IS the work. And it IS pretty darned stressful to play in a symphony orchestra a lot of the time. Other times - not so much. So let us bitch and moan. Even if it is over many years. We still love it or we would be making a lot more money doing something else, because griping about a job and hating it are not the same thing at all.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I play for the music. The check is something that I was blessed with by winning an audition. It allows me to engage at this activity at a much higher state on a daily basis. It is not a change in what I want or try to get from my job. It is, however, my job. Please flush that idea fro your head as it is truly insulting to someone who has made the music the focus of his life.

The pleasure of the money? Give me a break. Please.
compared with
MONEY is what allows you to continue playing. MONEY is what allows you the free time to practice two to four hours each day. MONEY is what allows you the time needed to drive to and from gigs and performances. MONEY is what allows you to keep gas in your car and food in your belly.
HMMMM............
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:tuba:
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Post by Rick Denney »

bloke wrote:There is SOME motivation (if not some contest or award, recognition, appreciation, building favor, impress/meet members of the opposite sex, sell insurance to colleagues, a combination of the above, other (??), SOMETHING...)
The motivation for me is in being a part of the music as it is performed. Even an audience, for me, is optional.

We don't do contests, nor to we get awards or much in the way of recognition. Nobody has ever tried to sell me insurance, and even when I was single, I didn't trawl for dates at band rehearsal. I did it, and do it, because I like the sound the tuba makes in contribution to music that moves me, and it gives me satisfaction to make those sounds. It may sound corny, but there it is.

That said, I don't disagree with your statement that money is a universal measure of value. But I think your use of it as a measurement is limited when you only consider what patrons pay to performers in cash.

Yes, people express the opinion of the value when they buy a ticket or make a donation. But for an amateur group, the audience is not the customer. This is something I (as an actual community band president) have to repeat over and over again. In a community group, the performers are the customers.

The people on the stage do what they do to please themselves. We try to present our self-indulgence as a service to society so that others will offset our costs, but at the end of the day much of what we receive in revenue comes out of our own pockets. And those who participate spend a lot more than just covering the expenses of the group. They buy instruments, they put gas in the car, they keep their tuxedo cleaned and pressed, they sometimes take time off from work, and so on. There is also the opportunity cost of diverting money from money-making investment into something that is an investment only in one's artistic expression.

The fact is that most musicians, even many professionals, don't look on music as a job. It's pure self-indulgence, and they try to manipulate the world around them to provide them an acceptable living to do it. Many pros think of themselves as the customer, and if the experience doesn't provide them the satisfaction they demand, they huff and puff just like a customer who is unhappy with service received.

My use of "self-indulgence" above is not intended as an insult. (Step AWAY from the keyboard!) It is a reflection of what I said earlier that we do things because those things come naturally to us. When we choose that easy path, we are indulging ourselves. If the path doesn't seem that easy, we probably won't remain committed to it over the long haul.

As I hinted before, if people just wanted money, they would study money and go into finance. If I just wanted money, I would not be an engineer. I spend too much time actually designing things for an hourly wage, when I could be spending that time managing investments, with much greater potential for building my personal wealth. But I would rather do what I do.

So, money is a measure of value, but you have to consider all the indirect ways in which value can be assessed, and then convert them to money. The customer/provider transaction is just one link in that chain.

Rick "who would generally rather spend money than make money" Denney
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Post by Rick Denney »

tubasinfonian wrote:Our society is about to change drastically, and it's going to be my generation and those whom I teach today who will fuel that change.
With all due respect, this is the arrogance of youth (and I don't even know how old you are). These words have been uttered by every generation that came before you, and will be uttered by your kids and their kids.

And there have been changes, and drastic ones. But I don't think those changes have been towards making music and art more of a commodity. Jacobs tells stories about how he could or could not work in particular organizations because of union rules about giving work to someone already available in the local, etc. That sounds like music-as-commodity to me, to a much greater extent than people think of it today, even pros.

It's easy to be idealistic about money when you have little of it. As you collect it, though, you become more conservative about it, unless you collect so much that it no longer has value to you.

People still have to make choices about what they do. Nowadays, people have a (self-indulgent) expectation of being able to do what comes naturally to them and get paid for it. That's less commodity-driven thinking than prior generations, who did what was placed before them with little opportunity to question or change it. I consider myself quite fortunate that what comes naturally to me turns out to be marketable, but after doing it for decades, it has lost a lot of that appeal. But it hasn't lost so much appeal that I'm willing to start over with something else. Some who are in their 20's would call that "selling out".

Let's see what they have to say when they are at the half-century mark.

Rick "noting that all those narcissistic baby-boomers were leaders of the 'protest generation'" Denney
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