Large Sousaphones and the like

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Big tubas (and sousaphones) do not reduce the risk of overblowing. Providing the tuba with enough resonant air through a strong embouchure prevents overblowing.

That said, some tubas produce an edgier sound more easily than others. Kings, with their smaller bore, are an example.

There is a difference between sousaphones with a larger bore, large sousaphones, and jumbo sousaphones. True Jumbos, like the Conn 48K, haven't been made in many decades. Yes, they are very large and heavy.

But if you want a new sousaphone, you don't have much choice. All the Conn/Selmer sousaphones are really Kings, except for the old 20K, which is still made in limited quantities. For example, the current 36K is made in the King Eastlake factory, just like the King 2350. The 20K is a large sousaphone with a larger bore, but it's not a Jumbo. It does have known intonation problems that you have to work around, and it's still quite large and heavy. And you'll find it to be very expensive.

It would be cheaper to find a used Conn, either a 14K or a 20K. The 14K has a larger bore than a King, but has a tighter wrap and a smaller bell. It's also lighter. I find that it blows more openly with less edge, but still with a focused and clear sound. And it has excellent intonation. I prefer it to the 20K and it's also considerably cheaper.

I played a King all through school back in the early 70's. The sound of the .687-bore King is less deep and full, but they do play loudly. The old Reynolds sousaphones are similar to the Kings. I personally prefer the Conns, and specifically the old 14K.

The 14K is the lightest of my favored options, at a little over 23 pounds. It's not noticeably heavier than a modern fiberglass sousaphone.

Of sousaphones made now, there are the Yamahas (often rebadged as new Holtons), Jupiters, Werils, and one of several European brands that would probably be hard to find here, plus the new Conns and Kings. Give me an old Conn or King compared to any of these.

Taylor Music is a good source for reasonably shiny used sousaphones.

Rick "owner of two 14K's" Denney

Onebaplayer · Post by **Onebaplayer** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:58 pm

talking about the 75 pound "solid silver" tubas.. you might want to borrow one of those next time you see them... you could melt it down and move to a remote island.. 75 pounds X 16= 1200 oz. with the going price at around 20 bucks an ounce, thats a 24 thousand dollar tuba before any production costs are put in.

Maybe not enough to move away, but I'd take a yamayork over a backbreaking 75 pound sousaphone any day. More likely, they overestimate the weight and silver content drastically.

NDSPTuba · Post by **NDSPTuba** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:09 pm

I'm hoping he meant nickle silver.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:27 pm

fun as it sounds, I don't think the added fourth valve would be worth the extra weight/cost if you are actually going to be moving around and outside while playing. It has been said that nothing below the Bb two ledger lines below the staff projects much outdoors anyway.

The intonation on the three valve Conns and Kings is good. Low B natural and low C (1-2-3, 1-3) are lippable for sustained or exposed passages. Ripping around on three valves is kind of fun...

Eric

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:30 pm

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:24 am

Interesting incident: on one souzy I played years ago I noticed a discolored ring around it at a certain point about 5/8 inch from the bow. I thought nothing of it, but noticed it wasn't where I had to pull to tune.

Then that October I was part of a group that was asked to play for the courthouse centennial and relaying of the corner stone the next county over. As we tuned up, it being a cool Saturday in October (think football weather, of course), I had to push the slide in to be in tune. Only after I tuned did I notice that the slide was pushed in to exactly the discolored point. The horn knew what to do better than I did!

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:58 pm

I've definitely heard that the Jupiter 3-valver (basically a copy of the kings) is far better than the 4-valve instrument.

J.c.S.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:24 pm

J.c. Sherman wrote:I've definitely heard that the Jupiter 3-valver (basically a copy of the kings) is far better than the 4-valve instrument.

J.c.S.

And unfortunately, that's not saying that much. The local university a couple of years ago retired some venerable Kings for some new shiny Jupiters that are so flimsy I cringe wondering if they are going to dent just picking them up. Yes, Kings have great projection. I really like playing the 38K together with a King for projection and a Conn 14K or Buescher to knit everything together with the breadth of the 38K.

The Jupiters, however, go beyond projection to just being strident, and the supplied 24AW-ish mouthpieces with them don't help. And yes, close up, they are a copy of the King, down to the last detail of brace and wrap.

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:10 pm

You can even buy a Jupiter Suzy bell as a replacement for a king - bell tenon and all!

J.c.S.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:30 pm

I currently own two 1920s vintage Conn 4 valve sousaphones, a 28K Eb and a 40K BBb. I have also owned an older King 3 valve (I think a model 1250) and a Conn 20K. I sold the king to buy the 20K and found that I liked the way the King played better than the Conn. The Conn had a little too "round" a sound for me while the King was much more focused. I sold the 20K after getting the 40K. The 40K is the same size as the 20K, but with a 24" instead of 26" bell and regular valves rather than the short action of the 20K. A 4th valve on a BBb sousaphone just adds weight and although I love the way mine play, their 3 valve brethren play just as well.

If you want a jumbo sousaphone to be able to show off what a big hunk of metal you have then go for it. Otherwise don't bother. None are available new today with the possible exception of the Conn 20K, which is really not a jumbo, but is larger than other sousaphones available new.

I also wouldn't spend the money on any new sousaphone for personal use. Used Kings are usually available for less than $1000 on eBay, often much less. You do need to be careful because those sold as in playing condition often are not, but you are much more likely to get a good playing sousaphone by buying an older king, or the less frequently available, but still fairly common Conn 14K than buying any sousaphone you could buy new today.

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:18 pm

My old King is now in the hands of a great caretaker. Biggest durn souzie I've ever seen, I certainly don't remember the dimensions precisely, but it was at least 60# (that's where my bathroom scale shut down) and the tenon was big enough that the bell fit over my head (hat size 7 1/2) with room to spare. 4 valve monster...I showed it to Dick Barth when he was working for King, he sent me a page from a 1930s catalog and said 'that's it"...nope. The catalog model wasn't nearly as big as Chloe. *sniff sometimes I wish I still had 'im, but playing it only 3-4 times a year, it just wasn't worth the pain any more.

andrew the tuba player · Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:13 pm

I really like my schools 20k. I dunno how old it is. but the intonation is better than any horn i hve played with the exception of the 20j. The short actions make fast passages real easy to get through. and the tone is very deep and ccan back up just about any group but can be made 'sharper' for solos and intence backup lines (standtunes). I honestly would play this over just about any concert horn i have (id be a fight between it and the 20j) but, im not allowed so...yeah
and heres a pic. just for fun