euphonium debate

andrew the tuba player · Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:03 pm

ok. me and my friend were talking the other day about which euphonium is best. We got to our favorites the Besson BE2052 Prestige and the Miraphone Bb-M5050 Model Ambassador Edition. I've never had experiance with a besson but have heard they're good. Mirafones are good. so, i was wondering which one was. I like the Mirafone but im biased so...yeah I have no idea of priceing so...that's not the issue (for once) this is kinda ironic seeing as he's a tromboneist and i'm a tubist. guess it's right between.

The Impaler · Post by **The Impaler** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:35 pm

Eh, loaded question.

It's really not a general question of which euph is the best. It's a question of which one is best for you, your style of playing, and your pocketbook.

Different strokes for different folks and all.....

oldbandnerd · Post by **oldbandnerd** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:06 pm

I think the old Boosey&Hawkes Imperials are really fine horns.

Here's my 1966 B&H Imperial :

I got to try a lot of different models recently at the Army Tuba/Euphonuim conference. If given the chance to buy a new one I would choose a Willson 2900( large shank reciever) . It was so close in sound to my Imperial but better in so many ways.

I agree that the answers here will be skewed by personal needs, taste.. etc .

andrew the tuba player · Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:17 pm

yeah, thats what it comes to. the I've played three. a Holton a yamaha 321 and an accent threee valve. obviously the Accent doesnt fit But i like he others. The yamaha had great sound,intonation and seemed to be in tune in the higher registers. The holton is good, but it has the famous sticky first valve and the forth seems to also. Really, as far as tone, we have an old Bundy bairtone that i'd play over the holton for sound. but the holton wins playabilty.

druby · Post by **druby** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:31 pm

I have been a euphonium performer exclusively for nearly 48 years. I started on older American horns like Conn, Reynolds and King, but mostly Conn. I still own two Conns, a 1932 Pan-American and a 1967 Connstellation. Both are great horns. However, in the 1960's and early 1970's, there really was no choice. If you wanted a top line horn, you had to get a Besson. I played my first Besson (an Imperial) in 1969 and continued on either the Connstellation or Imperial through 1974. In 1980, I purchased a new "round-stamp" Boosey&Hawkes Sovereign which I played regularly for 27 years. Last summer, I purchased a new Buffett/Besson 2051-2 Prestige and love it. I sold my old reliable Sovereign to an undergraduate Euphonium student of Dave Werden's at the University of Minnesota.

Right now, there are actually a large number of fine horns available. The Yamaha 321 (mentioned above) is a great horn for the Euphonium doubler since it can be purchased brand new (in lacquer) for around $1600 at my local music store. I place the King 2280 in the same class.

However, I continue to disagree with those who are predominatly NOT euphonium player re: the benefits of compensating vs. non-comp horns (Bob1062 and I have had this disagreement numerous times before).

By far, the best euphoniums and the horn of choice by 100% of ALL professional euphonium soloists will always be a compensating horn. These days, the Besson Prestige, York Eminence, Willson 2900, Miraphone 5000 or 1258, Hirsbrunner, Sterling Virtuoso, Yamaha 642 or 842S, Meinl-Weston 551, and others (I am certain I forgot someone) are all great horns. There is no one best, there are however preferences.

More soloists play either York, Besson, Willson, or Yamaha than play Meinl-Weston, Miraphone, Hirsbrunner or Sterling as far as I can tell. While I have no first-hand experience with the Meinl-Weston, Sterling, or Miraphone horns, I have played all the rest mentioned above. Under the right circumstances I would be happy to own a good example of anyone of the pro-level compensating horns and I assure you the listener would be pleased with the sound.

Doug Ruby

JTJ · Post by **JTJ** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:20 am

Great answers, Cale and Doug. We are living in a golden age of euphonium development, so players have a real choice.

Maybe Doug could have mentioned the Kanstul compensating horn, but the buzz is that it still has some issues keeping it from being first rank.

And down the road are some interesting horns:

The newly announced Willson 2960 Celebration euphonium, which by its name has to be targeted towards the brass band market. Now the sound of that horn should be very interesting.

The strongly rumored Xeno Euphonium by Yamaha, which should also be a brass band horn.

The new Meinl-Weston developed with the help of Matt Tropman, which would imply a soloists horn for an American style player.

Gosh, almost as many choices as tubists have.

John

rascaljim · Post by **rascaljim** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:40 pm

I know we're talking comp, but I played the Kanstul non-comp euphonium when I was over at Lee Stofer's place and I was pleasantly surprised.

oldbandnerd · Post by **oldbandnerd** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:45 pm

which should also be a brass band horn.

which by its name has to be targeted towards the brass band market

What is meant by those two statements ?

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:09 pm

rascaljim wrote:I know we're talking comp, but I played the Kanstul non-comp euphonium when I was over at Lee Stofer's place and I was pleasantly surprised.

I play-tested the Kanstul comp and non-comp euphs Lee had at USABTEC earlier this year, and found both to be noticably sharp on the third partials and glaringly sharp on the sixth partials.

Although I did not do a direct comparison, I also thought the non-comp was less flexible and less responsive than my King 2268 and the Yammy 321s I've played.

druby · Post by **druby** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:22 pm

oldbandnerd wrote:
which should also be a brass band horn.

which by its name has to be targeted towards the brass band market
What is meant by those two statements ?

Since the tenor horns, baritones, and trombones provide the brilliance in the middle voices of the British brass band, euphonium performers value hugely dark and robust sounding horns that add warmth and blend to the ensemble.

The traditional Yamaha 642 and 842 and Willson 2900 horns have had a reputation for being "bright" compared with the desired sound in a brass band. The Besson 967 Sovereign was the quintessential brass band horn, followed recently by the Besson Prestige 2052, Sterling Virtuoso, and now York Eminence. A "brass-band" horn will tend to have a very large bell (12+") for resonance and projection, a large leadpipe, and overall a darker, more robust tone quality. My personal Prestige 2051 with its 11.2" bell would be considered "bright" by brass band standards.

Yet, the mouthpiece and the style aand warmth of sound that the player imparts have a big impact on darkness of tone and blend of the horn in the ensemble.

Doug Ruby

JTJ · Post by **JTJ** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 pm

Doug answered the questions very well. I would only add that from a marketing perspective Willson has targeted the Celebration line at the brass band market as has Yamaha with the Xeno line of instruments.

John

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:43 am

Bob1062 wrote:It means that the manufacturers are hoping that brass bands (surely the most common entity to buy matching sets of instruments) will buy a matching set of those euphoniums and whatever tubas, alto horns,... that they also have.

I would wager that schoosl/school distructs are the most common entity to buy matching sets of instruments.

JTJ · Post by **JTJ** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:30 am

sungfw, I agree if you mean over here, but in the UK and, I believe, Europe in general, the brass band movement is a very big market.

See:

http://www.ybsband.org.uk/2007/yamaha.html

http://www.york-brass.com/englisch/pres ... ornets.htm

or midway down this page

http://www.swissprofi.ch/willson/news/index.html

"During the Swiss Brass Band Competition WILLSON showed their entire range of brass band instruments with great success. The new WILLSON Celebration cornet which the young superstar Philip Cobb (UK) is playing attracted much attention."

John

druby · Post by **druby** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:52 am

Bob1062 wrote:
It means that the manufacturers are hoping that brass bands (surely the most common entity to buy matching sets of instruments) will buy a matching set of those euphoniums and whatever tubas, alto horns,... that they also have.

The target for the Willson Celebration is not for matching marching sets. It is strictly a concert horn.Same is true for all the high end compensating horns. These horns are designed and marketed to Europen style brass bands (of which there are an increasing number now in the US). When a major UK brass band gets a matching set of horns such as Black Dyke did recently with new York Eminence cornets and euphs, it is largely because of a marketing relationship with the manufacturer. Otherwise, the tendency is for each musician to choose his/her own favorite.

In fact, the marching horns (often "matching") used by American drum and bugle corp competitions or by high school and college marching bands are usually completely different in configuration. The marching euphs (including the convertible horns built by Jupiter and Yamaha) are designed for "bell front" positioning while playing. This maximizes projection on the performance field. These horns use either an "over the shoulder" position or adapt the whole horn into a kind of cornet/mellophonium-style wrap that is held out in front of the musician.

In the Cal Band, I had a silverplated Besson 3-valve compensating horn with a traditional American-style bell forward removable bell for marching and a 4-valve compensating bell-up Imperial for concert. That 3-valve horn could play! We had recordings in which I out-blew the 1st trumpet player next to me.

And I agree with Bob1062 that a 3-valve horn for marching is just fine.

Doug

The Impaler · Post by **The Impaler** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:39 pm

I would wager that schoosl/school distructs are the most common entity to buy matching sets of instruments.[/quote]

I don't agree. I would venture to say that rarely, if ever, do public school band programs buy matching sets of instruments, at least in my experience. It's just not that important a consideration for school band programs, plus, school bands tend to buy a few instruments at a time, and while most of them try to keep all their tubas the same, their euphs the same, etc, that's usually as far as it goes.

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:58 pm

JTJ wrote:sungfw, I agree if you mean over here, but in the UK and, I believe, Europe in general, the brass band movement is a very big market.

John,

I don't dispute that the brass band movement is a large market, nor do I dispute that some instruments are designed for and primarily marketed to the brass band movement, nor do I dispute that schools/school districts do not typically buy high end instruments. Given that schools, both public and private, both here and in Europe DO buy musical instruments, however, what I DO dispute is that brass bands are the most common entity to buy matching sets of instruments.

I would also wager that military bandsâ€”given their number worldwideâ€”would surpass brass bands as purchasers of matching sets of instruments. (Heck, Haiti has three military bands, and they don't even have a military!)

mclaugh · Post by **mclaugh** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:08 pm

The Impaler wrote:I don't agree. I would venture to say that rarely, if ever, do public school band programs buy matching sets of instruments, at least in my experience. It's just not that important a consideration for school band programs, plus, school bands tend to buy a few instruments at a time, and while most of them try to keep all their tubas the same, their euphs the same, etc, that's usually as far as it goes.

And your experience covers ___ of the 13,506 school district governments, 178 state-dependent school systems, 1,330 local-dependent school systems, and 1,196 education service agencies in the US?

JTJ · Post by **JTJ** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:25 pm

sungfw, I don't disagree with you. My point was slightly askew yours, and probably could have made without seeming argumentative -- which is that the brass band market is a big one, and that instrument makers are competing for market share among brass band players. The Willson Celebration line is an obvious attempt to gain such. And it will be really interesting to someday play a Willson designed with a brass band sound in mind!

John

J Stowe · Post by **J Stowe** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:46 pm

Given that my experience is limited to the 12 years of being in band programs, teaching or coaching many programs for over 5, teaching at numerous summer camps, and observing festivals and discussing shops with public school teachers in the state of Georgia and other random schools through various conferences and performances, never have I once encountered an educator discuss the desire to have or seen a program with matching sets of concert horns; due to my observation of limited funding and hearsay of many booster programs, most public schools in the state of Georgia do not have matching horns, and I think it would be a safe best to think that most states would be in the same circumstances, give or take a few fortunate scenarios. It's just really hard to get people to issue that kind of tax money for a cause that doesn't interest enough people.

Arts are the first to go.. We know this.

The Impaler · Post by **The Impaler** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:09 pm

And your experience covers ___ of the 13,506 school district governments, 178 state-dependent school systems, 1,330 local-dependent school systems, and 1,196 education service agencies in the US?[/quote]

Nice numbers for your first post. Completely unnecessary, but nice. To answer your question, it probably covers somewhere around 100 or so, mostly in Texas and Georgia. However, having taught in a highly-successful program in Texas that raised ridiculous amounts of money on an annual basis and completely replenished the entire program's school-owned instrument supply inside of five years, I can tell you that we were in a position that few programs are. And we rarely, if ever had a section playing all the same instruments. Directors buy what's cost-effective for their band, and most of the time have to go through a bidder/approved-vendor process to do it.

Are we done with the threadjack, or do you have more numbers for us?

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