I need a horn that will do it all.......

[NDSPTuba]

I understand what you are saying, but i also think that the second performance didn't sound as good because the recording quality wasn't near as good. The mic placement picked up way to much reverb from the room which made everything sound muddled and delayed.

[Rick Denney]

Here are 2 videos on Youtube that illustrate my point:

Now this is a great post, and had this been your first post the thread would have gone a much different direction.

The line between the classic "European" sound and the classic "American" sound has really blurred in recent years, it seems to me. I have a York Master, made by Boehm and Meinl back in the 60's, that is a blend of the two concepts. You would love the valves--they are to die for. But I think that tuba would have a bit too much of the European influence for what you are describing. Changing the bell on that instrument might do just the right thing. In fact, that's what B&M did with the later 5500 model with the fixed bell. Mine has interchangeable bells, and I think the ring and tenon design are a bit narrow and that constrained the shape of the bell unhelpfully.

Joe has the parts of a similar instrument in his shop. I think he was planning to convert it to C with a different bell, but got distracted by a Beuscher and his move. You should talk to him about it.

Also, the factory that made that instrument is now owned by Nirschl, and Nirschl does advertise "BM Symphonic" instruments, including the old 5500 model. The valve arrangement is different, but I think it's the same basic instrument. I think my YM and the 5500's that I've played are among the best largish Bb tubas ever made. Nirschl also makes C tubas.

I don't think you'll significantly find better valves than what you have now, unless you find an instrument with those B&M/Nirschl valves. I believe the valves on your current instrument are the same that are on a large percentage of the piston tubas currently made, at all price levels.

Rob had suggested the Getzen G50 (sometimes labeled Canadian Brass CB-50). A Bb equivalent would be the King 2341 (new style), though at a lesser build quality. These are great tubas on the smaller side of 4/4. They have that classic American sound through and through, great response in the low register for a smaller instrument, and wonderful clarity. They are similar to your current instrument, but pushed fully in the American direction, being modeled on old American designs. I heard Gil Corella give a performance of highly technical Pryor tunes on a CB-50 with wonderful tone and clarity. I don't play C tubas but every time I've had a few minutes with a G-50 I've thought that was an instrument that could encourage me to solve that problem.

My own big Bb tuba is a 6/4 Holton, and I find myself choosing mouthpieces that let me put a little bark back into the sound to keep it from being woofy. It's definitely not a do-all horn. Joe has a good one that you should try just to get an idea of it. Good intonation on those beasts is not automatic, but that's true for most big tubas.

Matt Walter at Dillon Music has created a frankentuba based on a Martin, and you might want to give that some consideration, too, if it's still available. I think it would have characteristics you might like.

I have this feeling you might think a Thor, the current hot-dog tuba, as being a little too European for your taste. When I've heard people play them, they've had a bit of that Euro bark. Other than that, they are really fun and easy to play.

I apologize for mis-judging your post and your intent, and I appreciate that you stuck with it. Good luck in your search, and please stick around.

Rick "thinking the G50 is probably the best starting point" Denney

[gjones7777]

and btw, I found your tuba page very informative.

[eupher61]

there certainly are a few differences in quality between a video at a college recital hall, and the PBS Boston Pops tv shows.

Not to mention a piano accompaniment and the Boston Pops.

Interpretation is a personal preference.

I do hear a bit that edge you say you don't like in the 2nd performance. I really do think that's as much the recording quality as anything. The last note certainly is not his best...

good luck with your horn search, and thanks for bringing some of these topics!

[MikeMason]

Has anyone thought to take into account that it's an Eb cornet vs. an Eb tuba?I'm shocked that the instrument with a fundamental 2 octaves higher with 1/4 the tubing length is cleaner sounding...also the tuba sound doesn't really happen til about 15 or 20 feet up/out(or more).This tune was intended exclusively for a piston valve cornet.Other instruments playing it is really an impressive novelty.I'm all for it and it does serve to put a listenable showpiece in front of some audiences.A piston tuba playing this might have been a more fair comparison and might make your point better.

[Rick Denney]

A piston tuba playing this might have been a more fair comparison and might make your point better.

Mike, I'm going to suggest that Mr. Jones has something here. He's evaluating a cornet solo on the basis of how it's supposed to sound when played by a world-class cornetist. It was clear to me that Marsalis conveyed noticeably more shaping and phrasing, with much greater command of the story he wanted to tell.

It's possible that the tuba is incapable of playing with that sensitivity, when playing what's supposed to be a technical showpiece for cornet. The time required for the pulse to get from the lips to the bell is a significant percentage of the length of the note when the notes are as short as they are in Carnival of Venice, and that time is only a fourth as long on a cornet.

Marsalis also has, effectively, four times the air for phrasing than Baadsvik, just because of the two octaves.

Frankly, the bark Baadsvik added to his sound added upper harmonics that will make the notes easier to interpret by the listener.

To compare what might be possible with tubas of different types, one might do as you suggest and compare Baadsvik's performance of the Carnival of Venice with Sheridan's. Here's an excerpt from his recording:

http://www.patricksheridan.com/audio/Bo ... Venice.asf

It is a rounder tone and it is cleaner. But, to my ears, the energy is different, too. I think I might like the fatter sound with the bit of bark, but that's a matter of taste.

Rick "who bets that Baadsvik attracts more groupies" Denney

[k001k47]

Has anyone thought to take into account that it's an Eb cornet vs. an Eb tuba?

I did.
Perhaps an apt example would be comparing Pat Sheridan to Baadsvik.

[gjones7777]

I agree, every word. And if I may add this? If anyone wants to "rework" their tuba playing or just simply play different music see if you can get your hands on trumpet, cello, violin, viola bassoon etc concertos transcribed for tuba, or just transcribe them yourself.
I started playing these many years ago and they kicked my ***. Not because I couldn't play the notes, but because I had to change they way I played to make them "musical"; especially when I had heard them performed by a great player on their native instrument. Tubas don't sound like violins, but Bach, for example, seems to work on just about anything, when played well. Other composers take alot more work, but they're worth it.

Anyway, it changed my playing for the better I think. At the very least, I had another world of music to play that I never had before.

Just a thought...

[MikeMason]

Have you guys ever listened to Pat Sheridan's CD's ?

[David]

Sam Gnagey, a regular poster here, makes a killer horn. They run $6000, but you get what you pay for: an extremely agile, responsive and overall great CC.

My friend owns one, and mine is arriving the mail next week.

Defiantly something to consider

[gjones7777]

Pat Sheridan's a very good tuba player, and a great musician.
I like to listen to him play.
But his "Carnival " doesn't light my wick

JMO

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'm not looking to fart around in a polka or dixieland band.

I want a horn that has intonation and SPEED.

I need a horn that will easily and CLEANLY play anything I throw at it.

I greatly appreciate and respect your opinions.

The last time I played 186s was over 20 years ago and other than the finish, there wasn't much I liked about them. Their sound is too bright for me, a little stuffy on the bottom and the action was way too slow.

Call me crazy but I don't like Oystein Baadsvik's sound that much. I think he's a bit on the blarey side.

IMHO, Bobo has the chops..or at least used to...but still not the best sound I've ever heard. A good sound, but there are better sounds still.

Pat Sheridan's a very good tuba player, and a great musician.
I like to listen to him play.
But his "Carnival " doesn't light my wick.

I respect your right to have your opinions, and I would certainly not argue with them.

But, since you don't like Oystein Baadsvik's sound, think there are better sounds than Roger Bobo's, and Pat Sheridan doesn't "light your wick"...

I have no idea what value you would place in my opinion as someone with a graduate degree in performance and no gig. Since I enjoy listening to recordings of all the above players, my opinion would no doubt be a polar opposite of yours. Here it is, anyway:

Try a Yamaha YCB-822 if you never have...nice fast response, certainly not as bright as the 186, and better-than-average intonation, IMO.

Todd "not farting around, but who enjoys an occasional dixie gig" S. Malicoate

[Rick Denney]

But, since you don't like Oystein Baadsvik's sound, think there are better sounds than Roger Bobo's, and Pat Sheridan doesn't "light your wick"...

Boy has this forced us to rethink our biases and be honest with ourselves. Here's what I'm thinking because of this thread:

1. Pat Sheridan blows me away. But he does so because I'm a tuba player, and I cannot help be be blown away by skill so far beyond my own. When I listen to his CD's with my wife, I suddenly hear it with her ears. With her ears, it's hard to get through the whole CD in one sitting. Live--that's a whole other thing.

2. Bobo is commanding and powerful. But his Carnival (as recently linked from a Youtube video of his performance on the Tonight Show) was just a bunch of notes. And there were...issues. Carson nailed it: He said something like, "I know how impressive this is because of the way Doc and the band are reacting to it." In other words, it didn't impress him directly, but he was impressed because musicians, who KNOW how hard it is to play that musically on a tuba, were impressed. In my opinion, Bobo was out of his element with the C of V. He's a Kraft kind of guy, though I know why he didn't play that on TV.

3. Baadsvik has a fat, rich, energetic sound. It suggests to me this: A good sound is not necessarily a beautiful sound. A good sound is one that communicates the intentions of the performer. Miles Davis had what any classical trumpet player would call a lousy sound. But it was the right sound for the story he wanted to tell. Is Baadsvik's sound the right sound for the Carnival of Venice? That would be a matter of taste.

4. The only CD of tuba solos that I can listen to with my wife is Sam Pilafian's first Travelin' Light. When I first played that for a buddy of mine when it was new, his response was, "you could actually listen to that all the way through." But when Ray and I first listened to it sitting in my car after our post-rehearsal dinner, we were both thinking, "I gotta sell that damn thing. I'm just no good."

4a. The exception to the above is the Bach Flute Sonata track from Gene Pokorny's Tuba Tracks. There is real expression there. Funny, but when the story is really coming out, I don't focus much on the sound or on other technical bits. The story is too compelling.

5. Corollary: The story is everything. If the voice gets in the way, it doesn't matter if it's beautiful (or not).

6. I have heard many, many tuba players of high reputation and skill whose sound is airy and unfocused. I keep wanting to lend them my PT-48 mouthpiece.

7. I don't hear any of those faults in my own sound. That, of course, is why I'm still a second-rate amateur after all these years. I need to hear myself with my wife's ears, God bless her.

8. I bought a tuba (actually, several) that I don't deserve. I bought them, and I play them, because I imagine that they will facilitate what I would really like to do. The fact that I still can't do them is a problem. But even though I fail, I still come closer because I chose an instrument in keeping with my unattainable goal.

Rick "who learns a lot when using his wife's ears" Denney

[tofu]

[MikeMason]

That flaming sousa makes me smile almost as big as the German cuties drinking the beer,but for slightly different reasons...

[gjones7777]

"..Well what I'm thinking because of this thread, is that trying to make a contrabass tuba perform like a cornet or cello is like trying to run the Kentucky Derby like a thoroughbred such as Seattle Slew, but on a Budweiser Clydesdale."

That might be true, and physics is indeed stacked against the tuba, but If you manage to pull it off, doesn't that make it even more impressive?

And besides, if you can't play pretty when playing slowly, you either just can't play or you really need a different horn.

i.e.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxhTxDoNjg0

[kingrob76]

I've been out of playing for a long time (20 years) and I need a horn.

I want a BBb or CC. I want a horn that PLAYS! Meaning, I'm not looking to fart around in a polka or dixieland band. I want a horn that has intonation and SPEED. I have a horn now that I just got and it's basically a "student model". I need a horn that will easily and CLEANLY play anything I throw at it. I would like your opinions as I am not able to just "shop around" as there are no large dealers in my area. I don't have unlimited funds however I'd rather pay more to get what I want as to pay less and get another "ok" horn.
I greatly appreciate and respect your opinions. What's the BEST all around horn out there?

Thanks !

Update: I played a brand new 188 yesterday and I am very comfortable in stating they had the best, fastest rotary valves I have ever seen in almost 30 years of playing. Mirafone has clearly not rested on their laurels and continues to improve the design of their rotary horns. The design improvements were noticeable and well planned. I wasn't in the market for a 188 and I had to think about it carefully. Truly a remarkable 4/4 instrument

[David]

I'd agree that he might not be able to match Bobo's power. But what, specifically are you referring to when you say "flexibility" ?

[MikeMason]

To each his own.IMO,unless those recordings were fakes done with heavy sampling or computer cheating,Pat's stuff is way ahead of Bobo's .I have deep respect for both men and many others but pat definitely has the most technique of all the soloists I've heard.Artistic merit is certainly up for debate and is largely a matter of taste.

[TUbajohn20J]

A Conn 2J or 4J should do the trick..a Reynolds 175 or Reynolds TB-09 would also be good.