I need a horn that will do it all.......

[J.c. Sherman]

I wil second the evaluation of Mr. Lind. His Carnival is the best I've heard, IMHO.

The technique, sound and style I've always loved the most, though is Fletch. Talk about command, sound, control... Another plug for Eb

J.c.S.

[eupher61]

Maybe the Bobo recordings were made prior to "cut and paste", but cut and splice was certainly available. As was retracking (tape to tape, not a physical cut) or punch in.

[gjones7777]

"...I have listened to recordings of Patrick Sheridan playing. He is an immensely talented musician with a great tuba sound. His sound and Roger Bobo's are very different, and from what I've heard Mr. Sheridan does not come close to matching Mr. Bobo's power and flexibilty....."

To me Bobo is the standard for "playing a tuba". His playing was perfect.

But does playing notes perfectly make music? Not always imo.

Sheridan seems to have fun when he plays. Look at the wide range of music on his recordings. On "Bon Bons" he follows Vocalise, Opus 34, no. 14 with Mexican Hat dance. I like both equally well. Were all his notes in Mexican Hat Dance clear? ummmm no, but it was quite entertaing none the less.

I've always been wowed by Bobo, but never entertained.

[Wyvern]

Having been away the last few days, I have just got to reading this thread. It is surprising all this talk about the sound playing solos when the OP was about an all-purpose tuba. For most of us 99% of our playing is supporting an ensemble, be it band, or orchestra - not standing out front playing solos. Surely for ensemble use a different sound is required from solo playing, more of a foundation tone?

The comparison between cornet and tuba playing Carnival just illustrates to me that the cornet is a more suitable instrument for solo use. Why can't we be happy playing music written for the tuba, rather than trying to compete with other instruments in a work for which the tuba is really not at its best? Such pieces as Carnival played on tuba are I think mainly to impress other tuba players, rather than a true musical expression. Other musicians are at best impressed with the skill, but more often just amused at the result in comparison to the original instrumentation. However for doing what it was intended, providing the bass to support the ensemble, the tuba is supreme!

For an all-purpose tuba I find my B&S PT-20 4/4 CC to be very good - ideal for concert band, but with shallow cup mouthpiece can still be turned to solo use. Incidentally the rotary valves are excellent - fast and smooth. Having tried a Miraphone 188 first, I find the PT-20 provides a much richer and fuller tone.

[J.c. Sherman]

Why can't we be happy playing music written for the tuba, rather than trying to compete with other instruments in a work for which the tuba is really not at its best? Such pieces as Carnival played on tuba are I think mainly to impress other tuba players, rather than a true musical expression. Other musicians are at best impressed with the skill, but more often just amused at the result in comparison to the original instrumentation. However for doing what it was intended, providing the bass to support the ensemble, the tuba is supreme!

To be frank, it's because there is so little truely wonderful music for the Tuba. I'll probably be flamed for it, but our instrument is too new, to ill-respected, and simply not written well fo by most composers, most of whom do not rank among the greats, or among the great show pieces writers either. Transcriptions allow us to expand our musical horizons. Jake expounded on this very point. However, if you sound like a tuba player playing Carnival, instead of a musician playing Carnival, you're doing something very wrong. It can be done right.

J.c.S.

[TubaRay]

However, if you sound like a tuba player playing Carnival, instead of a musician playing Carnival, you're doing something very wrong. It can be done right.
J.c.S.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, but in my opinion, I'd like to both sound like a tuba player and like a musician when I play. I am always working toward that goal.

[circusboy]

I'd just like to say that I think that gjones7777 brings a welcome and refreshing perspective to this board. Thanks.

And nobody beats Bobo.

And I'd love to hear more answers to the original question.

[PWtuba]

A good sound is not necessarily a beautiful sound. A good sound is one that communicates the intentions of the performer.

That's the best thing I've ever heard.

[eupher61]

how can you NOT sound like a tuba player when playing tuba? Sure, the goal is to sound musical, but do you want to sound like a violin when playing the Bouree' (from Air and Bouree')?
I don't think so.

Wanna sound like a horn, playing Strauss or Mozart? Gawd, I hope not. Missed notes are embarrassing.

I've heard a recording of "Ory's Creole Trombone" reworked into "Short's Portland Tuba". I haven't heard a Bob Short recording, but one from maybe 15 years ago...not sure of the date. I'm not sure what it sounds like, but it's an example, to me, of bad choice in transcription, at least as far as that performance.

The idea of a transcription is not to sound like the original instrument, it's to show what wonderful music was written, so wonderful that it can be respectfully and convincingly played on a different instrument. You gotta sound like a tuba (unless you're playing euphonium, of course.)

[WakinAZ]

Ditto. There are similar, more controlled, studies where the attack is chopped off a recording of a long tone, and most folks cannot identify the instrument. I'm figuring there is a burst of extra overtones (tonal "signature" of the instrument?), etc. vs. the fundamental at the attack.

[SplatterTone]

Yeah. But, by golly, they could tell if it was lacquered or not. And if the mouthpiece had a tone intensifier on it.

[iiipopes]

It's not just overtones, but inharmonic sibilants that are the components of the articulation that give the character to the different instruments and help the ear distinguish between them.

[Rick Denney]

how can you NOT sound like a tuba player when playing tuba?

I don't think the issue was whether we did or did not sound like a tuba. I think the issue was whether the tuba sound told the story as effectively. Clearly, the Baadsvik Carnival was well played and it told a story. But it lacked much of the nuance of the Marsalis version on cornet. The question is whether the difference is attributable to the instrument or the performer. In this case, that's not easy to answer at all.

And it's not the recording. You and I can both tell if the story is being told even if the recording is less than perfect. I was listening on a crappy computer speaker and the difference glowed in the dark.

It was an illuminating demonstration.

So, do we stop playing cornet music because we don't sound like a cornet? That's not the relevant question in my mind. The relevant question is: What do we do to produce more of the expressive qualities that Marsalis displayed? It's quite possible that Baadsvik was doing all that could be done--on a tuba. That doesn't make his performance any less entertaining, especially to tuba players. But I suspect there's a reason Baadsvik was playing for a college audience on the tuba circuit while Marsalis was playing, even as a kid, in front of the Boston Symphony.

I, for one, am happy to crawl inside the sound that I make and relish it. I have no real pretensions to technical wizardry, and it's a good thing that a whole note with the right sound thrills me more than a well-executed run.

As I said before, if the story is really being told, the instrument and the sound fade in importance.

Rick "it's not about the tuba" Denney

[Tubaryan12]

I, for one, am happy to crawl inside the sound that I make and relish it. I have no real pretensions to technical wizardry, and it's a good thing that a whole note with the right sound thrills me more than a well-executed run.

Yeah, what he said.

[gjones7777]

If the playing is excellent and the sound sucks.........then the performance sucks.
Disagree?

Try giving a recital on a kazoo! Even IF you "play" every note correctly, ya really think anyone will buy the CD?

[sloan]

If the playing is excellent and the sound sucks.........then the performance sucks.
Disagree?

Try giving a recital on a kazoo! Even IF you "play" every note correctly, ya really think anyone will buy the CD?

I would purchase a CD of good music played on a kazoo LONG before I would purchase a CD of the most exquisitely played 1/2 hour series of whole notes - all the same pitch.

But - why pose such silly questions? All performances are a mixture of:

a) play the instrument
b) play the notes
c) play the music

If you fall below theshold on any of these, the performance is a failure.

As you develop as a player, one of a), b), or c) is your major weakness, and you come to think it's the most important thing to work on. (In the alternative, some players decide that their STRENGTH is the most important item, and decide that they are already the best player in the world - considering only that aspect of playing). If you work hard at a), then a) is no longer holding you back - and either b) or c) is your new "weakness". So, you stop working on a) and start working on c)...and then b)...and then...and so on.

[gjones7777]

yeah yeah.......and Rod Stewart's voice was "sandpaper on a blackboard" smooth.

But he was crazy and sexy and blonde in his youth..........and.........oh yes........wasn't playing tuba.

I would indeed enjoy seeing (much more than hearing) a tuba player give a concert who's sound was the tuba equivalent of Rod Stewart's voice. Heck I'd pay a dollar or maybe even a buck fifty......

And yes different types of music require different kinds of sounds.

Maybe it's just me but I find it far easier to play raunchy than beautiful. I guess that's why I'm looking for a horn that has a dark full sound and also plays in tune.

Yes I know if I was playing some types of music; metal, crack induced fusion etc I wouldn't need to play in tune either.

But again, I just don't have the chops to be a death metal / rap / hip-hop tuba player

[The Big Ben]

yeah yeah.......and Rod Stewart's voice was "sandpaper on a blackboard" smooth.

But he was crazy and sexy and blonde in his youth..........and.........oh yes........wasn't playing tuba.

Uh....wasn't rod Stewart Forever Young?

Rod The Mod may have recorded it but it's a Joan Baez tune. Don't ask me how I know. It's a long story and maybe I'll tell it at Blokestock. After the horn testing, scotch drinking and gun shooting. Not before.

[gjones7777]

oh and I much prefer Jingle Cats!

[Rick Denney]

All performances are a mixture of:

a) play the instrument
b) play the notes
c) play the music

If you fall below theshold on any of these, the performance is a failure.

I would express the same point but in a different way. For me, the music is everything. Anything that is conspicuous other than the music detracts from it. I have heard performances where missed notes did not detract from the music, and where the music was supported by a sound that would not pass muster in any orchestral situation.

But if the sound is bad (as in kazoo), then it calls attention to itself and detracts from the music. For some situations, a sound that is too beautiful might do the same. Can you image a Miles Davis solo with Bud Herseth's sound? The sound would be amazing but it would be entirely to confident and cheerful to convey the emotion of Davis.

Watch Marsalis play classical and jazz tunes. In the classical stuff, he's standing straight up and projecting that sound to the next county. When playing jazz, he hunches over a bit and the sound turns in on itself. I don't think that's an accident.

Back in the deeps of time, I played (bad) valve trombone in a swing band. The leader of the group played tenor sax, but he was primarily an oboe player of orchestral quality. His sax sound was anything but orchestral. It was reedy and airy (even by saxophone standards). But it had energy in it that reinforced his point. There were others in the group with smoother, prettier sounds, but who could not lay that energy out there.

I think of sound and technique as tools to be used in constructing a musical narrative, not as an end in themselves.

I just wish I could actually do what I think. I work on the tools in the hopes that mastering them will reveal music I'm not sure I have in me. But with the tools at my current disposal, the music I can convey is pretty limited. After 37 years, I should probably accept my fate but I keep working on it, at least in fits and starts.

Rick "whose tools are a hammer with no handle and a bucket with no bottom" Denney