Hindemith question

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:24 am

Just idle speculation,but,it probably never crossed his mind.Many if not most people,even other musicians and conductors you perform with,will not notice or care when you change instruments unless you screw something up with the new one or if the new one is significantly prettier,uglier,bigger, or smaller, or a different color from the old one.Sad but true.Equipment change is largely for the satisfaction of the player,IMHO...

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:11 am

First of all, Hindemith lived in Switzerland from 1953 until his death in 1963. He wrote the tuba sonata in 1955. The Swiss/German influence probably meant he envisioned the Bb tuba when writing the piece, further supported by the choice of key.

The very good textbook Paul Hindemith: Complete Works published by Schott unfortunately does not include a review of the tuba sonata...the last one reviewed is the double bass sonata from 1949 (vol. 5, no. 7). I don't know of any specific letter or other writing of Hindemith where he addresses the issue, and I did some thorough research of the piece back in graduate school.

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:23 pm

au contraire, mes freres.

Note the title of the Sonata--for Piano and BASS Tuba (emphasis added)

Certainly Hindemith would have been familiar with the Wagner-esque distinction between bass and contrabass.

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:29 pm

eupher61 wrote: Certainly Hindemith would have been familiar with the Wagner-esque distinction between bass and contrabass.

"Certainly" is definitely a stronger word than I would use. Probably I would not use anything stronger than "Possibly."

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:20 pm

tuben wrote:who would LOVE to see the reaction of the TNFJ to being told to play Symphonic Metamorphosis on BASS tuba

Well, I have played it on a Besson 981 Eb

- although I would say CC, or BBb would be better.

eupher61 wrote:Note the title of the Sonata--for Piano and BASS Tuba (emphasis added)

I have never quite understood what the dividing line is between bass and contrabass tuba. What makes an Eb a BASS and a C a CONTRABASS? Would a C#, or D tuba be bass, or contrabass?

What I am getting at is - Are these artificial definitions used by tubists of which many composers, including Hindemith would be unaware?

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:27 pm

jonesbrass · Post by **jonesbrass** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:24 pm

From my time playing in Germany, it was quite clear that "bass tuba" means a tuba in F and that "contrabass tuba" meant BBb. From that I always thought bass would also include EEb, and contrabass would naturally include CC.

Yes, Symphonic Metamorphosis is played on F in Germany. It yields an entirely different sound than it would if played on a large BBb or CC. In some places, like Germany, they are that picky. Show up and play the excerpts better than everyone else (but on a "nontraditional" keyed instrument for those pieces in that country) and you might win the job, but they'll ask you to switch to the horns traditionally associated with those pieces in that country.

Imagine the student of Arnold Jacobs who showed up and played most things on a York-type CC, "won" the job, but on the condition that he play on a German-made rotary F tuba (for bass tuba) and German-made rotary BBb (for contrabass tuba). It's happened at least once. I don't know if they are that picky anymore, but they sure were "traditional" back in the day.

BLUF, play what the person signing your check wants you to play. If you're not getting paid, and you're playing for your own enjoyment, Who cares? Play it on whatever horn you're lucky enough to own, and/or whichever one you like to play it on.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:35 am

I have a number of times read about how particular they are in Germany about which key of tuba is used.

I was therefore quite surprised when I went to a concert of Mahler 9 (part marked Bass tuba) by the Munich Philharmonic while in Germany last year to see a York style 6/4 CC being played

KevinMadden · Post by **KevinMadden** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:20 am

Bob1062 wrote:

I believe he also wrote that Arnold Jacobs would have preferred to have used to use F for most things. I'm paraphrasing what I read awhile ago, but I think I captured the essence of it.

.

I seem to recall reading in Arnold Jacobs: Song and Wind that Jake seemed to use a BBb a lot of the time (and then the York CC's)

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:16 am

Bob1062 wrote:I really don't know that piece TOO well, but I DO work up Prok 5 on my Eb and would be glad to try it in a group (though I would like a bigger bass tuba, my horn is friggin tiny!).

I think most of the repertoire can be played on whatever key is preferred. The BIG difference is in depth and weight of tone. When I played the Hindemith on Eb, that was all I had played and I was satisfied with the result.

Now I am used to having the rich tone and power of my Neptune, an Eb would sound distinctly underpowered. Tonal perception changes through experience.

And that is not only of the player, but others in the ensemble. Yesterday I was playing Bruckner 4 in rehearsal with orchestra on my Eb, because that is perceived (in the UK) to be more the 'correct' tuba to use (the part is marked Bass Tuba). The 1st trombone turned around to me after one of the ff chorales and said "Can you give more? - not enough tuba!" There is no way I can provide more playing my Eb without sacrificing tone. You see he has become accustomed to hearing my Neptune and his expectation of the tuba tone has changed.

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:02 am

TexTuba wrote:The bottom line is that all of these composers who keep coming up on their meaning of tuba are dead, so why the big fuss?

Since they're not around anymore to defend their works, now you're free to paint a mustache on their Mona Lisa with impunity. Is that your point?

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:35 am

Rubberlips wrote:I think Hindemith specified BASS tuba to distinguish it from The Wagner tuba which plays in the baritone range (one octave higher up)

I think that could explain the notation of parts by quite a few composers.

Jonathan "who is not 100% convinced that a C tuba is technically a contrabass anyway"

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:42 am

tubashaman wrote:I think contrabass is more of a modern term designated by tubaists.

The earliest use of the term I have come across is in Wagner Ring, but in that case it may well be because the lower Wagner tuba is marked in the score as 'Basstuba' (to confuse) as discussed in another thread.

Mahler 2, 3 and 5 are marked 'Contrabasstuba', but I do not recall seeing the notation on music otherwise.

I think it is true that the specific tuba to use is largely at the discretion of the player.

jeopardymaster · Post by **jeopardymaster** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:51 pm

eupher61 wrote:au contraire, mes freres.

Note the title of the Sonata--for Piano and BASS Tuba (emphasis added)

Certainly Hindemith would have been familiar with the Wagner-esque distinction between bass and contrabass.

Hmm. I always thought it was a BaÎ²tuba. Wasted a lot of time looking for BaÎ². I wouldn't have known him even if I HAD found him.

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:34 pm

Hindemith commonly bragged that he could play every note he ever composed, on each respective instrument. It's known he was competent on a wide variety of musical instruments. To think he was indifferent to the use of an instrument pitched a 5th lower doesn't really add up.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:36 pm

good point.I wonder what tuba he owned/played?

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:41 pm

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:42 pm

UncleBeer wrote:Hindemith commonly bragged that he could play every note he ever composed, on each respective instrument. It's known he was competent on a wide variety of musical instruments. To think he was indifferent to the use of an instrument pitched a 5th lower doesn't really add up.

By which you mean...

what? He wouldn't have minded the use of a contrabass? Or he WOULD have minded the use of a contrabass?

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:49 pm

eupher61 wrote:By which you mean...

what? He wouldn't have minded the use of a contrabass? Or he WOULD have minded the use of a contrabass?

Hindemith was obviously acutely aware of the Germanic nomenclature "bastuba", and the difference in meaning from "contrabasstuba". The fact he swore he could play his own tuba sonata simply emphasizes his knowledge of the tuba and its variants.

Since he bothered to write "bastuba" on the sonata, it's safe to assume that's exactly what he meant.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:50 pm

TexTuba wrote:What I am saying is that we are never going to really know what kind of tuba they had in mind.

That is a valid point. Just because a certain key of tuba was used in that country at the time the work was composed does not mean that is the ideal sound for the music. It just means that is what the composer had to work with at the time.

All performances of classical music are modern interpretations to a greater, or lesser extent. Unlike paintings such as the Mona Lisa, music is a living art.