low c

[MikeMason]

I'm still jousting at the low c on my B&S f.I'd like to try to start a thread to gather the accumulated wisdom of folks who have achieved a degree(or 2)of mastery of the low c on rotary german f's(newer miraphones excluded).I'd prefer it to be experienced teachers and pro's.If any German guys are on here,I'd love to get some of your thoughts on the subject.I hope this will be a very useful thread for many of us now and in the future.Of course I can't monitor who participates but lets try to learn something here.Thanks,

Mike"love/hate my rotary f"Mason...

[JCalkin]

My experience with the low c (when I still had the rotary) was that even though the C never felt really secure, it sounded fine out front.

Even if it feels squirrely, just slow the air down a bit and buzz a solid C into the mouthpiece and you'll be fine. Record it sometime and you'll be surprised how good it sounds, even if it feels really odd.

As always, YMMV.

[circusboy]

I used to have an OLD (1950s) Miraphone F. Intonation was a struggle to say the least. That low c was a particular bear.

This is the only thing that really started to make it work:

Relax.

I finally realized that no matter how I tried to force it out, contort my face into all sorts of weird expressions, move my lips into strange configurations, focus it, tweak it, pinch it--the only time that it really sounded correctly was when I could get into a kind of hyper relaxed state and hear the note in my head just before blowing.

This may not make any sense until you try it. Then it still might not make any sense. YMMV.

[Adam C.]

Hey Mike,

I don't consider myself an expert on the subject by any means, but I have had some success dealing with the low register on my PT10 and the B&S Symphonie I keep at work.
One of the things I notice about the C, and to some degree the B, is that I switch to somewhat of a "bulldog" embouchure for those notes. The embouchure I use for low C on F tuba is not the one I use for that C on CC tuba.

The lower jaw comes forward a little, the airstream changes to more of a straight angle, and I open up the aperture. I consciously blow on the low side of where the horn wants it, but still try to keep the tone color from getting flat. It's a balance.
It's also similar to the low register/pedal shift that I have on the big horn from around the low F on down. Interestingly, on the B&S's it's only from Db-B that I use this. With Bb and below I'm back to my more normal setup.

Of course individual anatomy and all of that comes into play for different folks, but you know that.

I do sometimes use 5-1-2 for the C, and 5-2-3 for the B. That works really well on the Symphonie.

[Rick Denney]

I'll quote a pro: The low C on an F tuba is like the low F on a trombone. You feed it rather than pushing it.

I also find that it sounds better than it feels, and this is confirmed by others who have listened to my playing.

Rick "not qualified to say more" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

FWIW, there was a big loop of tubing just kind of "hanging out" about halfway through the 4th valve loop on my Cerveny F. I added a brace and that seemed to make the low C more solid. I believe Lee Stofer did something similar on one of the Rudy F's one time.
"No substitute for practice"
On bass trombone I would frequently hear the phrase "relax your air" - and I think that helps as well.

Marty "who may not quite meet the criteria you requested"

[jonesbrass]

From my experience, Rick, Rob and Circusboy have hit the nail on the head. You cannot "muscle" or "force" the low range on rotary F's.
You have to relax . . . relax . . . relax, hear the note clearly in your head, and "release" the tone. The harder you push, the worse it will respond for you. Get comfortable with the fact that it will never sound or respond like your contrabass tuba in this register.
Also, IMHO, the more you concentrate on the mechanics of what you're trying to do, the longer it will take to get it. Focus on the sound and relax.
Decending scalewise or chromatic patterns that gradually reach you down to that register (and past it) will probably help you as well. After that, you can focus on arpeggios reaching down to the low C and beyond. Good luck.

[JHardisk]

I play a big rotary German F (MW 45S). I'd only ever trade it for the PT10 Tony Kniffen used to own and that now belongs to one of his students.

The trick, for me is to slow the air down and open my aperture. Think "oh". Also, like Adam suggested, the "bulldog" seems to come into play.

Absolutely no problem with low register on either horn.

[eupher61]

My B&S has a dent right next to the 5th rotor, on the inside of the outside tube. Viewed from above, it's about 2 o'clock on the tube. Bob Tucci speculated that it may be in just the right place to smooth out a nodal point or two.

When that happened, the low range opened up instantly.

[iiipopes]

I'm glad to read this thread. Even though I don't play an F, the same low range approach appears applicable on all horns. I'm having the same issues with low G, Gb, F, E nat & Eb on my 186: I try to hop it and it goes NO. I relax and work into it and it comes out just fine. So I'm going to work more along the same advice given here for the F tuba low C.

Thanks.

[randy westmoreland]

I hate it when my head explodes!

[tbn.al]

I'll quote a pro: The low C on an F tuba is like the low F on a trombone. You feed it rather than pushing it.

Rick "not qualified to say more" Denney

The Bass Trombone analagy is interesting. The feeding the air has a lot of merit. Both of the F Tubas I've played (how's that for a lot of experience) a MW182 and a Rudy, were really sweet right up until I got to the C and then Wham...It was like someone stuck a vollyball in the bell. I've never had that sudden lack of response on a trombone. It just gradually gets more and more cantankerous as you go down until it won't work any more. The F tubas seem to balk just at that one or two note window. Anyone know why?

[MaryAnn]

My B&S has a dent right next to the 5th rotor, on the inside of the outside tube. Viewed from above, it's about 2 o'clock on the tube. Bob Tucci speculated that it may be in just the right place to smooth out a nodal point or two.

When that happened, the low range opened up instantly.

OK, I thought this was "tuba legend," that is, someone's story that never really happened. What I'd like to see is good pictures and then ask Rick to talk about how this dent could make the nodes work better for the low C.
Really. I can get the C out of my 182, and I have noticed, specifically, that on days when my chops are really, really relaxed, that the C simply is not difficult, but....if this node thing could be scientifically documented, well, that would make a whole lot of people really happy.

MA

[Rick Denney]

The F tubas seem to balk just at that one or two note window. Anyone know why?

It really depends on the tuba. Here are some of my observations:

1. My Yamaha 621 has an easy low C. At least it's easy when I use a contrabass mouthpiece as I did for years and years. But when I switched to the MF-4 (that I'm also using on my B&S Symphonie), the low C stuffed up a bit. However, the sound everywhere else on the instrument was suddenly much more focused and clear. Bloke made a comment recently about trying to make an instrument into something it isn't by using an overcompensating mouthpiece, and I think that diagnoses this observation fully. Possible conclusion: We choose mouthpiece that make our F tubas really sing in the upper register, which is why we bought an F in the first place, with the result that the low register becomes more challenging. We could put a contrabass mouthpiece on the F and play that low C perhaps quite a bit more easily, but we'd lose the characteristic color of the instrument.

2. My B&S was not designed to be a replacement for a contrabass like later B&S F tubas. But it was designed to be a general-purpose tuba, and by F standards it's still large with considerable projection. I think trying to make F's sound and feel like contrabass tubas has made the low C more difficult in some cases, though it may be only in comparison with the rest of the instrument. But people who use instruments like this as a general-purpose tuba spend most of their practice time with that instrument. Hmmmm.

3. Even when playing a low C on an Alex F, which felt like the main slide had fallen out of the instrument, Elephant room listeners professed no difference in the sound they heard between the C and higher notes.

4. The fourth valve on my Bb Holton is a larger bore than the other three valves. The low F on that instrument requires every bit as much care and feeding as the low C on my B&S. One well-known pro suggested to me that he sleeved the fourth valve tubing on his C Holton to reduce the bore and make that note easier to blow. I do find that sometimes I get a more secure note by playing 1-3 and pulling the first slide way out. So, a fourth valve branch of fatter tubing (as is the case on both my B&S F tuba and my Holton contrabass) does seem to make the low second partial on that valve lose some of the focused feel. But the sound!

5. The fourth valve is the longest branch, and thus has the biggest effect on the ratio of cylindrical tubing to conical tubing, unlike the trombone, which has a more consistent cross section throughout.

6. It's easy to play a low F on a trombone, even for me. It's hard to play one with that fat, rich characteristic sound. The temptation in seeking that sound is to blow hard. That exactly the wrong approach, in my experience.

7. I'm wondering if the dent that made the low register open up knocked a loose solder joint more tightly into the ferrule, heh, heh. Or maybe it just provided that extra bit of resistance that made it easier to blow. Many possibilities there.

8. Going back to my first several points, if you want an F tuba that plays like a contrabass in the low register, they do exist. They do not sound like characteristic F tubas in the upper register, unless you use the right mouthpiece, but then you lose the contrabass feel in the low register. QED.

Rick "trying not to fear that low C" Denney

[SplatterTone]

This is not helpful, but I have always liked the visual aspect:
Take two hot dog wieners and slap them together quickly. Now, imagine that is your lips.

[Jay Bertolet]

8. Going back to my first several points, if you want an F tuba that plays like a contrabass in the low register, they do exist.

Why yes, they do exist. They're called Eb tubas!

I'll not offer any advice on how to manage the low range of the F tuba because I really have very little experience with the problem. All my bass tubas are Eb tubas and only one has any issue of this nature, and that is so limited in scope that it almost doesn't bear mentioning. Many of the previous posters mentioned techniques that might help and sound like good suggestions to me. Excellent thread!

Regards,
Jay Bertolet

[Wyvern]

I am still learning F tuba, so cannot really contribute to the solution.

Why yes, they do exist. They're called Eb tubas!

That is an interesting point - but why don't Eb tubas generally have this problem on their Bb?

Jonathan "Who will get his 182 out this evening to experiment with techniques in this thread"

[markaustinhowle]

There is a great exercise by Marcel Moyse which works very well with the low C on F tuba. He stated that in order to develop great tone production throughout the entire range of the instrument you first start by producing a great tone on one of the easiest notes and then gradually “carryâ€

[jonesbrass]

I have a serious question:

I wonder if German tubaists lament the "dreaded low C" like we do? Somehow I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

If they don't, then:

a) Is it not a problem for them, and americans just aren't used to F tubas (having all come from BBb or CC)?
or
b) What is their method for conquering this particular range?

[Donn]

That is an interesting point - but why don't Eb tubas generally have this problem on their Bb?

In case it unearths a clue to this mystery - I have several bass tubas that are good there, and one that isn't. (By good, I mean, that Bb or C speaks just as well as the notes above it.) The good ones are Czech helicons in F & Eb, with relatively large bores, and a rather spindly Orsi Eb.

The not so good one is a Pan American Eb Giant Bass, with the usual fairly small bore that radically increases into a contrabass size bell. (And not in fabulous condition.) There's a fairly striking loss of substance going from C down to Bb. But that C is pretty good, so I'm not sure right off hand that the Bb is worse than on the other tubas, or just not as much better.