Rotary Valved Trumpets

[Benjamin]

Talking with some Trumpet players and my band director (who is also a trumpet player) I brought up rotary valves. I prefer them on Tuba. So does he for Tuba, all of our school horns that he has bought minus the sousaphones are rotary. My director said though, that rotary valve Trumpets are hard to keep in tune. I play on a Piston valve BBb horn and a rotary valve CC and have no problems with tuning when switching between the 2. So why would rotary valves on trumpets be hard to keep in tune, yet a lot of Tubist use rotary valves with no problems. What makes their rotary valves (besides size) different then Tubas rotary valves?

[windshieldbug]

Without extra design, it's difficult, if not impossible, to extend the 3rd or 1st valve slides as many trumpetters are used to doing to play some notes in tune. That has changed, as now you will see all manner of mechanisms.

Early piston valve trumpets/cornets didn't have these provisions, either. Anything that was done was done with the chops.

[Dan Schultz]

I've often wondered why trumpets and cornets don't come standard with a 4th valve. I know some of the piccolo trumpets have 4th valves, but why not soprano trumpets and flugelhorns? Just curious.

[The Big Ben]

I've often wondered why trumpets and cornets don't come standard with a 4th valve. I know some of the piccolo trumpets have 4th valves, but why not soprano trumpets and flugelhorns? Just curious.

Triggers on both the 1st and 3rd can get the tuning needed. I can move the low F# below the treble staff on the Bb trumpet a half step down to an in tune F by kicking out the 1st and 3rd slides. I only have a ring for each but it is not difficult to do. A spring-loaded trigger for each would make it a piece of cake.As a manufacturing process, triggers are cheaper than another valve. I've done quite a bit of reading about the various types and styles of trumpets and have only seen 4th valves mentioned in relationship with the piccolo. The 4th with the pic is frequently used to facilitate alternative fingerings to make trills easier.

I'll try to find an article I read about rotary trumpets and post it. They take a little different technique in a few areas. One mentioned was to pull the horn into tune on certain notes by pushing the spit valve open. Yeah, it surprised me, too.

Ten minutes later-Here ya go:

http://www.aswltd.com/rotary.htm" target="_blank

[jonesbrass]

I can't speak to specific technical problems or intonation issues regarding rotary trumpets, but I can tell you that I'm a HUGE fan of the tone quality produced. I played with a conservatory brass choir in Germany for a while, and all the trumpet players had both piston and rotary trumpets. Gotta say I really enjoyed the sound of the rotaries much better for most of the music we performed.
We played one gig at the Ringkirche in Wiesbaden, an old domed church with smaller domes on the sides, complete with lofts for extra seating. We performed some antiphonal Gabrielli stuff in that setting set up as 3 brass choirs . . . the rotary trumpets could get VERY loud and powerful tone without getting the bright tone one would have heard at those volumes and in the higher register one would typically get with an american style piston trumpet. I guess it's as close to the definition of a "teutonic" sound as I've ever heard . . .

[Allen]

...
... I'll try to find an article I read about rotary trumpets and post it. They take a little different technique in a few areas. One mentioned was to pull the horn into tune on certain notes by pushing the spit valve open. Yeah, it surprised me, too.

Ten minutes later-Here ya go:

http://www.aswltd.com/rotary.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's an interesting article. It seems like the rotary/piston stuff with trumpets is like the same issue with tubas. The article goes into describing the differences between rotary and piston trumpets, and then describes how they are different in *every* way, not just in valve style. This reminds me of how a lot of tuba differences are attributed to valve styles when many other things about the tubas being compared are different. Do you suppose this is true of all brass instruments? All instruments?

Cheers,
Allen

[The Big Ben]

...
... I'll try to find an article I read about rotary trumpets and post it. They take a little different technique in a few areas. One mentioned was to pull the horn into tune on certain notes by pushing the spit valve open. Yeah, it surprised me, too.

Ten minutes later-Here ya go:

http://www.aswltd.com/rotary.htm" target="_blank"

That's an interesting article. It seems like the rotary/piston stuff with trumpets is like the same issue with tubas. The article goes into describing the differences between rotary and piston trumpets, and then describes how they are different in *every* way, not just in valve style. This reminds me of how a lot of tuba differences are attributed to valve styles when many other things about the tubas being compared are different. Do you suppose this is true of all brass instruments? All instruments?

I have seen a few 'French horns' with pistons but not many. I've seen more pistons used as the change valves on double 'French' horns along with rotary. It would seem to me that rotors are used more for mechanical reasons than acoustical but that just me blowin' hot air out me arse. No proof.

[windshieldbug]

I have seen a few 'French horns' with pistons but not many. I've seen more pistons used as the change valves on double 'French' horns along with rotary. It would seem to me that rotors are used more for mechanical reasons than acoustical

No, actually it IS acoustical. Those mixed valve horns are known as "Schmidt-action" horns. Horn players say that the balance between the F and Bb sides is superior, but that the length of the required action by the thumb makes them uncomfortable to play.



But you know horn players...

[The Big Ben]

Ah, thanks, 'bug. That's a good shot. If it were acoustically superior, you would think that would figure out how to make it move faster. Again, they *are* horn players. I tried to play horn for a few years but they never really let me into their clubhouse. Bastards.

I was more blowin' hot air out me arse about the main valves. The rotors seem to sit nicely and compactly within the rings of the horn. The only picture I have seen of a French horn with three pistons looked like it was clunky in function.

I've also seen something complicated that I cannot accurately describe called "Vienna valves". I dropped into Dan O.'s shop and he was midway through the rebuild of a horn with Vienna valves. They looked like two tubes fit together and one of them was twisted to open and close the ports. Or something like that. I could be blowin' hot air out me arse again, too.

[MikeS]

Wow, someday I knew that doubling on trumpet and cornet would be useful! As recently as last month I had a chance to play out on my Bflat rotary trumpet, playing fourth trumpet in a performance of Mahler 1.

To begin, some of the parameters that enter into the piston vs. rotary tuba debate are reversed in trumpets. Rotary trumpets have the valve section far earlier in the bugle than piston trumpets. Therefore rotary trumpets (almost always) have significantly smaller bores when they are measured at the valve section. A typical piston trumpet has a .460” bore while rotaries typically have bores in the 4.22-.441” range. Rotaries have shorter leadpipes than piston trumpets and this, I believe, is where the intonation differences come from. Some might also be mouthpiece related. Rotaries work best with mouthpieces that are deeper and have larger throats and backbores than you would use on a piston horn.

That said, I don’t think there is all that much difference in intonation. The rotaries I’ve played have a bit more of a problem with flat fifth partials than an average Bflat piston trumpet. On mine I use 1-3 for the fifth partial C (concert), 2-3 for C#, and 1-2 for D. I also use 3 alone instead of 1-2 for the seventh partial G. This is exactly what a lot of players with 25H pipe Bach C trumpets do, however, so it’s not that far out of line.

Most rotaries made since the mid-70’s do have a left thumb trigger to adjust the third valve slide. You still see a lot of the older horns in use though; because it is far easier to bend (adjust) pitches on a rotary than a piston horn. I have also seen a couple rotary trumpets where the left thumb trigger adjusts the main tuning slide.

Rotaries have different response and tonal characteristics than piston trumpets. I think really quiet attacks are easier on rotary. They do require a different technique to work properly, using a slightly slower release of the tongue. Rotaries do change tonal color with volume a lot more than piston trumpets. The general consensus is that they sound warmer and darker at lower volumes but they can brighten up quickly as you increase the volume. At ff they can be quite a bit brighter than piston trumpets. The heavier gauge metal used in the bell sections lets them get bright without getting edgy. This is the main reason why it’s really tough to mix piston and rotary trumpets in the same section.

A nice thing about rotaries is that different key rotaries blend much better than different key piston trumpets. It’s no problem to mix Bflat and C rotaries in a section where it can be a challenge with piston horns. What can be really hard is mixing players that have spent time getting to know rotary horns with players that borrowed one and took it out of the case for the first time at rehearsal.

[windshieldbug]

I've also seen something complicated that I cannot accurately describe called "Vienna valves".

No hot air. Below is a Horn-u-copia image of a Vienna valve trombone-