The Generation Gap

[sloan]

Dear Rick:

You win the prize for most effective troll of the year.

Congratulations!

[bttmbow]

If I was "part of the problem", I apologize. I don't post that much, because I hate typing, and most people I know HATE my excessive semi-colons; sometimes they are just not THAT effective...

Christopher J. Hall

[THE TUBA]

The conflict is not just because of a generation gap. There seems to be a set of "unwritten rules" for TubeNet like the "unwritten rules" for baseball. It just so happens that several of these "unwritten rules" have been documented in a few threads over the years. I don't care to look them up right now, but I'm sure someone will cite them sooner or later.

The problem is that these rules were not cultivated by Mr. Chisham and they do not represent the sentiment of all of TubeNet's users. These rules were developed over time by the members who post most frequently and authoritatively. Also, new users have no way of knowing that there even is an "unwritten rulebook" or where to locate it. Those who either by ignorance of or choice disregard these rules are subject to the scorn of the TNFJ until they are forced into exile or they become so weary of being flamed that they only post when absolutely necessary. TubeNet is the only forum I regularly visit in which its members are discouraged from participating.

For what it is worth, I don't think the infamous TubeNet flaming ( ) is not all that bad. It is just easy to assume another's words mean the worst. I think TubeNet would be a much more enjoyable place if everyone would just kick back and lighten up. Crack open a cold one and take a bite of TubeNet steak. There is no need to get all worked up about something that was probably a misunderstanding anyway. So what if someone creates a thread asking "r dees rotors or pistons tuba better?" Just let it go. Relax!




Mike "who is probably breaking one of those written unwritten rules by posting both food and beer simultaneously" Robinson

[TUBAD83]

My fellow Tubists:

Please consider the following:

We all chose an instrument that big as all get out, hard as hell to play in tune on GREAT day, can weigh anywhere from 20 to 40+ pounds, and cost as much, on average, as a good used car. The instrument we love is NOT for cheapskates.

Then there are the social ramifications of being a tuba player--all the snickers and wiseass remarks we put up with (until we decide to make "an example" out of some smartass clarinet player!)

We are all tuba players and we should respect each other--regardless of whether you started yesterday or 50 years ago; whether you play once and a while or 4 hours a day every day; whether you're in a middle school band or a professional ensemble--if we cannot respect one another here whats the point?

[willbrett]

Doc Wrote:

Tuba players without beer is like fish without water. Like the sky without stars. Like biscuits without gravy. Like brats without sauerkraut. Oh...what an ugly thought that is!

I've never heard poetry quite so beautiful. I feel a tear in my eye... You, Sir, SHOULD be published!

If nothing else positive comes from this thread, at least we have this!

[rocksanddirt]

I agree with tobad and the various posters suggesting beer.

text is a notoriously difficult medium to communicate effectively in (Why else are dissertations 250 pgs or more), it would behove everyone to hit the preview button more and the submit button less.

but you'all still are way nicer than most....check out craigslist forums (especially politics, pets, and romantic advice).

[The Big Ben]

Dear Rick:

You win the prize for most effective troll of the year.

Congratulations!

And *you*, Kenneth, are a wiggling worm...

Doused in beer. Wonderful beer..

[Dean]

I use TubeNet for what I need. Ignore the rest. I will comment socially once in a while, but I generally don't bother.


I recommend this policy.

[tubatooter1940]

Tubenet is a valued resource to me. I learn so much here that I missed as a lifelong musician. I have been flamed before more than once. I was surprised , at first, because my posts are usually cheerful and positive. But as long as you who are old friends by now, continue to post, I will continue to read you and comment if I have anything that would help or amuse.
I keep thinking about Doc and his 30 gallons of homebrew beer. Thirsty boy I am!
Had my first sweet potato beer (draft) at our gig at Cosmo's Sunday.
Strong flavored but tasty!

[KevinMadden]

First things first, Doc, I'll take you up on your offer...you have great tastes for beer, and I'm a college student who has never bought anything that came in a 30-rack (i.e. i drink the good stuff too)


I have never really found his forum to be mean or intimidating. The people that I see get flamed or picked on usually ask for it. When I post I always read the entire thread, I do my best to not be redundant with what was already said. If I have some experience that varies from what has been said, I'll post (like in the drum corps threads). If I ask a question it made it here only because the people I know in real life have no experience with the topic I want to be informed about. I won't ask, "what excerpts should play?" (I have a teacher for that) or "Pistons or Rotors?" (I have a brain for that) I may ask, "thoughts about horn xyz?" if no one I know has tried that horn. I don't like to talk about my playing, unless it is in a pedagogical manner. The people I see getting flamed do these kind of things. James, I think one of the reasons you get the flak you do is because you label yourself as a great tubist (never heard you, so Idk) you talk about going to a school, and majoring in Tuba, and then you ask questions that could be answered better by you teacher in five minutes that this board could probably produce in 8 pages of thread. As has been said, in this world the text we type is all we have to express ourselves. If a post has bad grammar, spelling, and just bad information in general, that is like (as bigben wrote) walking outside with your hair a mess, clothes dirty, and fly open. As far as those reversed pictures, did anyone ask if they were left-handed tubas? if someone did just politely say, "nah, their normal, Macs just reverse photos when they take them" (I got a Tattoo recently of my family crest with my last name written above it, took a photo for Facebook with my Macbook, and my Dad called me up and said, "Nice Tattoo, but i think you spelt our name backwards!") Also, you post on EVERY topic regardless if what you have to say has been said already. And those 'questions better for teacher' I mentioned earlier discredit you (at least in my mind) as someone to be taken seriously.

I think all that needs to happen is that young posters need to get a feel for this board before they start posting regularly. Old posters don't need to change much, They're valuable to the quality of the information that can be gleaned from the pages here. If the young, foolish, unexperienced, 'kolleje edumacated and headstrong' posters (myself included) don't give the oldies something to flame..... there'll be no flaming.

(Doc, my $.02 for the beer?)

[BVD Press]

First things first, Doc, I'll take you up on your offer...you have great tastes for beer, and I'm a college student who has never bought anything that came in a 30-rack (i.e. i drink the good stuff too)

Way off topic here, but is that beer shop down at the bottom of the hill near Pudgie's (if Pudgie's still exists) still there? What a great shop for beer!!!! My senior year at Ithaca we had a beer wall. We tried over 200 beers from the store and saved a bottle from each six-pack. What a pain that was getting rid of all the bottles on my last day on campus!

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue. Maybe all generations can agree that we like beer?

[KevinMadden]

First things first, Doc, I'll take you up on your offer...you have great tastes for beer, and I'm a college student who has never bought anything that came in a 30-rack (i.e. i drink the good stuff too)

Way off topic here, but is that beer shop down at the bottom of the hill near Pudgie's (if Pudgie's still exists) still there? What a great shop for beer!!!! My senior year at Ithaca we had a beer wall. We tried over 200 beers from the store and saved a bottle from each six-pack. What a pain that was getting rid of all the bottles on my last day on campus!

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue. Maybe all generations can agree that we like beer?

Not that I know of, the liquor store is fairly near Pudgies.
There is a Beverage distributor down the end of State St. near rt. 13 that has almost every beer I can think of (Except for Old Dominion Oak Barrel Stout.. going back to VA for that in about a week!!) Just yesterday I managed to get 10 different Rogue Brewing 22's. Impressive Beer wall, mine should hit about 85 by the end of this (my junior) year. Pain getting rid of the bottles? was this before bottle deposit where all you have to do is take you bottles and cans to Wegman's and get $.05/each for them? Also my wall was mostly a solo project as by this semester my roommates had downgraded to Natty Ice, or Keystone Ice.

[Dean]

Personally, I hate beer...


My drink of choice:

[Rick Denney]

A few excerpts from this thread:

• taunt
• requiring some rite of passage
• pissing match
• needless piss and vinegar

These are all being used by various posters to describe other posters, or the debate in general. Funny part is, these words and phrases have all been aimed at those determined to be "mean-spirited" and "uncivil."

(I edited your list to those words and phrases that I know were my own or that I echoed--there may be others that I forgot.)

Todd, one must always make a distinction between describing behavior and describing people. My words that you included (or the words of others that I echoed) are invariably in the former category. Your use of the term "mean-spirited" can only be directed at people, and therefore does not apply to the words that I used (or to many of the others words on your list, especially if you consider the context.)

Part of the problem is that people sometimes think such words are directed to them as people and not to their apparent behavior. Those folks need to realize this and thicken their skin. That's usually a matter of gaining experience. But there are plenty of descriptions that dance close to the line, and those who use them clearly have the motive of putting people down.

I'm not complaining about words. I'm complaining about motives. Those motives come through more clearly than their authors often realize. We (and I mean "we") should always examine our motives when engaging in debate. If the motive is to illuminate, even for the benefit of other readers who are not directly involved, then the words will probably not be perceived as insulting. When they are, it will usually be the case that the insultee is seeking to be a victim of insult, such that nobody can disagree with them without insulting them.

If the motive is to demonstrate superiority, then it is going to have to be mighty entertaining to avoid appearing to be spiteful.

If the motive is to challenge the accuracy of what the other party says, then the post will stick to the facts and it will look like a simple correction.

If the motive is to undermine the integrity, intelligence, or worth of another poster, then the post will almost always come across as spiteful. And it will rarely achieve its goal, unless the target is the author.

There have been times when, in the heat of battle, I have said to myself, "I'll show you." When I've done it in fun, it has only rarely not come across that way, and at such times I've had to backpedal and apologize. When I've done it, well, not in fun, it has invariably backfired. Even when the other person backed away, I've been left with an empty feeling. Now, I try to remember that feeling before pressing the send button.

There have been times in my life outside of Tubenet when I have been manipulated into being someone else's attack dog. I've gotten old enough and perhaps wise enough to prevent that now, at least most of the time. Those who manipulated me into doing it never had to pay the price for it, but I did. Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.--Poor Richard

I am NOT asking for a code of behavior or enforcement of anything by moderators. I am asking for a bit of self-examination by everyone before pressing the send button, and I'm also suggesting that those with the most experience and wisdom are best equipped to conduct that self-examination. I'm wholly interested in the future. The past is what it is.

Rick "who doesn't want to be misunderstood" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Todd, one must always make a distinction between describing behavior and describing people. My words that you included (or the words of others that I echoed) are invariably in the former category. Your use of the term "mean-spirited" can only be directed at people, and therefore does not apply to the words that I used (or to many of the others words on your list, especially if you consider the context.)

I don't understand your point here. I wrote that the words and phrases were describing posters (people) or the debate in general (behavior). If I expressed myself poorly (as I often do), I apologize...what I was trying to point out was the artificial "ramping-up" of emotions by the use of exagerrations and overly-severe words. Hyperbole is a useful literary device, but it nearly always evokes strong feelings in the reader...I would merely suggest that, quite often, a more bland tone could be use to express the same sentient points.

For the rest of your post...as always, Rick, well said. I agree almost completely with you, with the exception of one point:

I'm complaining about motives. Those motives come through more clearly than their authors often realize.

I think the motives often are severely misunderstood because, as has been pointed out a number of times in this thread already, the words on the page without any inflection or body language are such a poor method of communication in general. I have frequently complained that my intentions are misunderstood as "mean-spirited" and "acidic" when I know that was not the intention. However, I can with all honesty only blame myself for the style of my writing...I have begun to more carefully edit my own writing before hitting the "Submit" button...hopefully, that will help.

[Rick Denney]

One of things I lament the most about the current state of Tubenet is the loss of "Pros" who actively participated.

I miss that, too. But it really should be expected. Talking about tubas is a hobby that not all those who play tubas will enjoy. And many professionals seek other hobbies as a means of keeping their profession in perspective.

I am not unknown in traffic signal operations circles, and I'm sure there are forums devoted to that topic somewhere. But I don't participate in them. Talking about traffic signals is a profession for me, not a hobby. Since it is not a hobby for me, talking about it to hobbyists can be tedious until they learn enough to have something useful to say (or to be willing to accept what I say as having some expertise behind it). This is not meant as a put-down. It is what it is.

Easier example: I participated in a forum of owners of Canon digital cameras for a while. As a (distantly) former professional photographer, there are many topics about which I am not a beginner. But after a while, sorting through the unending supply of new beginner questions that were identical to the same questions from two days before in order to find satisfying conversations with experienced photographers became too much work.

Does that make me an elitist? Maybe. So be it. Does that mean those forums are flawed? Of course not.

Thus, that many pros wouldn't want to post a lot on Tubenet doesn't surprise me that much. Making it so that they wanted to would probably require preventing most beginners and hobbyists from participating. That's no solution. There may be no solution. But I don't think their absence means that Tubenet is fundamentally flawed. In the old days of Tubenet, the participants were, by and large, already well-established members of the tuba cult, and many were already known to each other. That it is no longer that was probably an inevitable result of being popular.

Rick "who knew many pros before joining in on Tubenet" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I don't understand your point here. I wrote that the words and phrases were describing posters (people) or the debate in general (behavior). If I expressed myself poorly (as I often do), I apologize...what I was trying to point out was the artificial "ramping-up" of emotions by the use of exagerrations and overly-severe words.

I would not agree that those words were all ramped up. Many were simply descriptive. But you described them as being examples of being "mean-spirited". That was your choice of words. "Mean-spirited" can only be applied to people--people have spirits, not behaviors. Therefore, that description is not appropriate to describe adjectives used to describe behaviors.

I think the motives often are severely misunderstood because, as has been pointed out a number of times in this thread already, the words on the page without any inflection or body language are such a poor method of communication in general.

It takes a lot of writing skill to hide one's motives. It can, of course, be done. Sometimes, motives can be obscured by writing that is obscure, and this can either be done on purpose (see Dr. Sloan's posts for an example of highly skilled obscurity) or through lack of skill (or care).

But if it takes a lot of skill to hide one's motives, the corollary is that those with less skill are unable to hide their less admirable motives. Those motives have a tendency to shine through, often in ways the author doesn't intend. Thus, a motive check is a good step for writers of all skills.

Sometimes, the writing reflects a motive unintended by the author. You can usually tell when this is the case, because in response to being misunderstood, the author tries again using a different approach. The author is also usually apologetic for the consequences of being misunderstood. Once again, the motives emerge, even if it takes a couple of tries.

Many examples of skilled and unskilled writing, confused motives, and even evil motives can be found on Tubenet, for those who are interested. Just go to Advanced Search, and search on all posts written by...

...Rick "guilty of most sins" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I would not agree that those words were all ramped up. Many were simply descriptive. But you described them as being examples of being "mean-spirited". That was your choice of words. "Mean-spirited" can only be applied to people--people have spirits, not behaviors. Therefore, that description is not appropriate to describe adjectives used to describe behaviors.

Maybe the third time is the charm, and the revealer of my true motives. My original quote (as you edited to remove some of the adjectives in question):

A few excerpts from this thread:

taunt
requiring some rite of passage
pissing match
needless piss and vinegar

These are all being used by various posters to describe other posters, or the debate in general. Funny part is, these words and phrases have all been aimed at those determined to be "mean-spirited" and "uncivil."

As you can see, I don't (and didn't mean to) describe the words/phrases as "mean-spirited." I said (albeit unclearly) that the words/phrases I think are overly severe have been aimed at those posters who have been determined to be "mean-spirited," often by those attempting to take the moral high ground. It wasn't my main point, just an aside which I found ironic.

We can certainly agree to diasgree on what constitutes unnecessarily "colorful" language...I doubt you could find two folks who would always agree on that. I'm just sorry it took 9 pages of dialogue before I could succinctly say what I've meant to say to your topic all along:

I don't see the particular problem you are referring to, Rick, but I agree that the conversations on TubeNet could be more civil. I will endeavor to do my part.

[windshieldbug]

"mean-spirited."

That could only mean Wade.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

"mean-spirited."

That could only mean Wade.

Funny, that. I find Wade to be straight-forward and honest with folks and NOT "mean-spirited."
My glasses are, admittedly though, a different shade of rose than most.