Composers writing for Bass tuba vs. Contrabass Tuba

[Wyvern]

I've heard some simply say, "the range (tessitura) is high on piece X, so I'm playing on a bass tuba," or "that piece is written primarily below low Gbb , so I'm using a contrabass."

True, but there is no doubt that a bass tuba does not quite have the depth of tone down low, so would generally not be at its best for the part. Also there are more likely to be difficult fingering patterns if the part is faster moving. While the contrabass tuba requires greater care with pitching in its high register. However, range is only one factor for consideration.

Another factor which I did not mention in my previous post is the nature of the part. Is the tuba playing a largely supporting (bass) role for the brass, or is it more soloistic. Going back to Mahler, symphony No.1, I would put as the former (excepting for the 3rd movement solo), while in No.6 the tuba is largely soloistic.

[Tom Waid]

My best guess is that modern composers mostly just think of "tuba", and even if they know about "contrabass vs. bass", they don't really consider this distinction when writing their pieces.

I believe the most common mistake that composers who are inexperienced make (when it comes to scoring for tuba) is that they write too low.

Once again I find myself agreeing with bloke

[pierso20]

I must agree a bunch with what Neptune said. Good input. I definitely would like to take notice that "which tuba to use" is a question we must ask in many different ways. It's not a simple clear cut thing, otherwise discussions such as this may not need to take place....MAY not...

[tubasinfonian]

For me the decision has far less to do with the actual written range, and far more to do with the tone quality produced and the role it plays in the ensemble.

Agreed. When I questioned John Adams about how he comes to write any particular tuba part, he indicated to me that he hears it within the ensemble, and NOT as being a particular instrument used. So ensemble balance is the desire of many prominent composers, not just individual sound.

This brings out a point not just about composers, but with the other things Neptune was hinting at, especially conductor preference.

I really love this smiley.... lol

[Nick Pierce]

I believe the most common mistake that composers who are inexperienced make (when it comes to scoring for tuba) is that they write too low."

Nonsense!!!

[pierso20]

I believe the most common mistake that composers who are inexperienced make (when it comes to scoring for tuba) is that they write too low."

Nonsense!!!

Yeah...maybe it's different in different places, but many pieces of music I've played from inexperienced or even some experienced composers is that they wrote too high.

THOUGH, it's often playable...I think they just aren't educated as to where the money range is.

Too low hasn't happened for me yet with those composers.

[OldsRecording]

You have to use the tool that will get the job done within the parameters of circumstance. Be that 6/4 CC, euphonium, or cimbasso.

You can't drive a nail with a hot dog. You'll only make a mess.

Neither can you drive a hotdog with a cimbasso. You'll make even more of a mess.

[windshieldbug]

You have to use the tool that will get the job done within the parameters of circumstance. Be that 6/4 CC, euphonium, or cimbasso.

You can't drive a nail with a hot dog. You'll only make a mess.

Neither can you drive a hotdog with a cimbasso. You'll make even more of a mess.

But you CAN drive a nail by playing a cimbasso. And it's the biggest mess of all!

[MartyNeilan]

You have to use the tool that will get the job done within the parameters of circumstance. Be that 6/4 CC, euphonium, or cimbasso.

You can't drive a nail with a hot dog. You'll only make a mess.

Neither can you drive a hotdog with a cimbasso. You'll make even more of a mess.

But you CAN drive a nail by playing a cimbasso. And it's the biggest mess of all!

Who says you can't drive a hotdog?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I think that we should give the composer the benefit of the doubt! Since the composer has thought a great deal more about the music (in the process of writing the piece), than we have, we should at least give his request some serious consideration.

.....What, if anything is marked on the part (bass, or contrabass), but to be considered in context of the part and the tradition. Much of German romantic music is marked Bass Tuba (such as Bruckner 4), but was that just because that was the regular tuba in orchestras at the time, or because that produces the tone the composer intended?

As luck would have it, I just played Bruckner's 4th, for the very first time, last weekend. For two rehearsals, I played the part on an HB-2, because there was also some Mahler (kontrabass tuba), and Shostakovich on the same program, and it was just easier to lug only one horn.

Well, for the dress rehearsal, on the day of the concert, I decided to bring a Rudy Meinl F for the Bruckner, and I have to say that the sound of that instrument was exactly right for that piece!

The Hirsbrunner played all of the notes just fine, but the fit of that F tuba, with the trombone section, was just like a glove!

It really surprised me how big the difference was! As a result, I now think that you should pay attention when certain composers, especially out of the Austro-German tradition, ask for a particular horn. They knew the difference!

It is a little arrogant for us to think that we know better than the composer, what is the best tuba to be used, for his music. In some cases, as mentioned earlier, the composer might not be knowledgable about the various tubas, but let's not ASSume anything!

[pierso20]

It really surprised me how big the difference was! As a result, I now think that you should pay attention when certain composers, especially out of the Austro-German tradition, ask for a particular horn. They knew the difference!

It is a little arrogant for us to think that we know better than the composer, what is the best tuba to be used, for his music. In some cases, as mentioned earlier, the composer might not be knowledgable about the various tubas, but let's not ASSume anything!

I tend to agree, which is why I believe what I do. Not assuming is the point.

[MaryAnn]

There are a lot of people out there writing music for instruments based on the range they saw somewhere in a book. So they see the range for a horn goes up to high C, and they write most of the part up there. After all, on a piano it doesn't matter where it is, you just hit the key and the note sounds. They have no clue whatsoever what it takes to play in that range. Of course I'm not talking the great composers; I'm talking people who write for instruments they don't play.

As a not-famous and not-great composer myself, I'm absolutely delighted if the group or musicians does not totally butcher both the notes and the concept of the piece, and I learned early on that just because the computer can play it perfectly does not mean that mortal humans can play it. I find that if I can't play a brass lick myself, I better not expect others to be able to play it either, at least not the caliber of player that I am lucky enough to get to play through what I write.

You have to see who is doing the composing before you make assumptions as to the intended instrument; some composers know exactly what they want and others are clueless, and of course there are many in the middle. I think the great composers and the great orchestrators had an excellent idea of what they were going for, but modern instrument choices may still require something different from what they indicated.

MA

[Jay Bertolet]

I have debated this question many times over the years. While I am firmly placed in the school that says "pick the horn you want, that sounds best to you for the part" I always have in the back of my mind my own personal experiences when faced with choices. I keep coming back to the personal revelations I have experienced when using a horn other than my usual choice for a given work. Nearly every time I attempted to be more historically accurate with my choices, the results always seemed to be better. I usually had to work to shed my preconceptions of the work, put in significant work trying to learn how to make the new equipment work satisfactorily, and then sat back to be amazed at hearing things that I never thought of in the process.

I once played Bruckner's 4th. I grew up with the CSO recordings in my head and that sound screamed contrabass tuba. The whole approach those musicians took to the work was simply amazing. When it came time for me to attempt the work, I chose an Eb tuba for the part. This was a true departure from what I was used to hearing. It was very difficult for me at first to make the situation work. I had to adjust my concepts a great deal before I could even approach a good solution. Once I did that, I discovered for myself a large number of things about that work that never dawned on me before. I found subtle pieces of compositional work and scoring that were very different from what I was used to hearing but sounded wonderful just the same. In the end, I felt the process improved and expanded my own playing with new tricks to put in my bag.

I guess the one message I came away with was that composers aren't all as dumb as they sometimes appear. I've played plenty of music that seemed really poorly conceived and made my job as a performer a lot more difficult. Sometimes that picture is exactly all I'm left with and sometimes, when I'm able to stretch myself and look for more, yet unseen truths (for me) are revealed. While not a slave to historical accuracy for its own sake, I am more inclined these days to look more in that direction with my choices because of the positive experiences I've had with that approach so far. Besides, that road leads to the opportunity that I will uncover more options for my own playing and new perspectives that can only make my own playing more complete.

Regards,
Jay Bertolet

[MartyNeilan]

Tonight I was looking over the part for the "Midsommarvaka", one of the Swedish Rhapsodies by Hugo Alfven. The part is clearly marked "Tuba Bassa" but both the tessitura and style seem to scream contrabass. I may try it on both horns and see which works best in the ensemble, as I will have my F tuba with me anyway.
I am just waiting for the part where the muppets jump out and sing, "Ma Na Ma Na."

[pierso20]

No insult to the O.P. or most everybody on this board, but up until we all started playing the bass tuba in the style of roger Bobo, the two were interchangeable.
I for one HATE Roger’s model as I think His tone was that of a giant euphonium most of the time. I think the reason tubists and tubaists (like me) use such a sound is that it is much better for fast articulations - it just sounds clearer at high speed and high notes are unarguably much prettier!
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

I assure you, I do not play the bass tuba like Mr. Bobo. I'm not nearly as good technically, nor does my sound replicate his. And Yes, bass tuba's and contrabass's are "interchangeable"...any decent player can play whatever part on whatever horn. In light of this, I often work on the same etude with contrabass AND bass tuba to make sure that notes/range aren't becoming biased in my playing on one particular horn. HOWEVER, really, It's about what sounds best on the part when it comes to performance. That's all I gotta say.

[Allen]

...
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

The soloist, Leonhard Paul, plays bass trumpet when he isn't playing trombone. The instrument he played in the video doesn't look like his usual bass trumpet; it looks more like a bass flugelhorn.

At any rate, he's a stunningly great musician!

Allen

[imperialbari]

...
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

The soloist, Leonhard Paul, plays bass trumpet when he isn't playing trombone. The instrument he played in the video doesn't look like his usual bass trumpet; it looks more like a bass flugelhorn.

At any rate, he's a stunningly great musician!

Allen

All of the Mnozil players are extraordinary in technical as well as (and more importantly) in musical aspects. Some add the touch of insanity, which makes their performances so catching. The bass trumpet player is one of these. The sound is all his own, emphasizing the not too obvious Tenorhorn aspects of the bass trumpet, which he makes sound the same as the bass flugelhorn. This video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWAiWgDsWlg

takes up a highly emotional human situation employing the music of a very well known German soldiers’ song (the first and last theme, the middle one is unknown to me). Even the gait is the one used at southern German funerals. And despite the topic this is a display of brass gymnastics demanding quite a vivid shape.

On the original topic I have no personal experiences, as I only have played trombone and horn in orchestras, but as a listener I tend to be in agreement with Jay Bertolet, even if his choice of Eb over F isn’t exactly historical for the core German repertory as isn’t the widespread usage of the CC nowadays. But then there is another aspect of historicity, which tends to disappear: local orchestral sound and performance tradition.

Within my time there has been one Danish orchestral tubist, who for his whole career played nothing but the 15” B&H Imperial Eb tuba. No change to the 19” bell, even if it was available for the last decades of his career, and even if he went through 3 samples of the said model.

In one field the choice of bass versus contrabass is all at the player’s discretion: the brass quintet. There are high profile ensembles like the Canadian Brass, but the most beautiful recording of tuba in a quintet I ever heard involves a member of TubeNet: Jobey. Not as a soloist, but as an ensemble player. The unification of sound between the horn, trombone, and tuba in Triton Brass was amazing, while Jobey played the B&S F-tuba that sadly was damaged during a trip to a French competition. Jobey’s later CC recordings are very good, but I never will forget that magic ensemble sound of his old F.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[eupher61]

Interchangeable? I'd certainly argue that, and I play almost nothing BUT F.

The Perantucci F tuba modifications have totally changed the concept of F tuba, esp for non-German tradition players. They wanted to get away from the German sound of the smaller F, intentionally. I don't have specs at hand, but the pre-Perantucci F tubas (I'm not sure, but I'd bet they are still being made by B&S) were slightly smaller bore and more cylindrical. Smaller leadpipe too. Totally different sound.

Comparing THAT F tuba to a Kaiser Alex or 190 or Rudy F or (insert your favorite BAGST*) is laughable. Even comparing the sound of any 4/4 or bigger CC or BBb to a Perantucci-influenced F is laughable.

Believe me, I know F tuba. And I know I don't sound like a contrabass unless I have to. I don't want to most of the time, but I can certainly do it. Almost. Sorta. If the listener is slightly hearing impaired.

*Big *** German Style Tuba

[pierso20]

Brooke, I guess you missed My point, they can SOUND so nearly alike, that nobody other then a low brass man is going to know the difference. So my guess is that if you hear a lot of difference, then you probabaly do sound a bit like Bobo.
Did you check out the vidio. It's my new favorite from the Mnozil Brass.
OOps! here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HYSVKUS6As" target="_blank" target="_blank

I still don't quite agree. I promise that if I blindfold my VERY non-musical girlfriend and play both horns she could easily tell. ( NO cracks about the blindfold...haha).

Anyway, Just because you have a different sound concept for bass vs. contrabass doesn't mean you get a Euph sound on your bass. My bass playing sounds very much like a tuba but sounds very different than my big horn.

Now...if I was comparing a Yamaha Piston F, like the 8** (can't remember the exact number at the moment..brain fart) to smaller 4/4 C...then maybe they'd sound alike.

Just my opinion though.

[J.c. Sherman]

No insult to the O.P. or most everybody on this board, but up until we all started playing the bass tuba in the style of roger Bobo, the two were interchangeable.
I for one HATE Roger’s model as I think His tone was that of a giant euphonium most of the time. I think the reason tubists and tubaists (like me) use such a sound is that it is much better for fast articulations - it just sounds clearer at high speed and high notes are unarguably much prettier!
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

I am certain that there's not a single word here I agree with.

I believe in playing, selecting, and performing on Euphonium, Bass, and Contrabass Tubas differently, fully, and to their strengths, even if their ranges are identical. Yes... identical. Certainly each has its strength in one range or another, nimbless, endurance, whatever. But a Bass tuba is and should be a different instrument from the Contra - as different as it is from Euphonium. Alto trombone, Eb trumpet, other families of instruments know and recognize the timbre differences within their families; it is only some tubists that fight to make them the same, for reasons I cannot even begin to understand, save not allowing themselves to entertain the idea of an F tuba as a complete instrument in its own right, and not a modified CC tuba, or supplement to same. Let a bass tuba BE a bass tuba, and enjoy it as such, and you, your section, and your ensemble WILL notice a difference. If you don't like the difference... well, some of us do, and will continue to ask composers to write for it specifically as such

Bobo might be a better tubist than many of us here... and more successful. Whatever complaints one may have with him, you can't disown his success as such. Think about that before degrading his tone.

J.c.S.