question(s) for quintet players - Bozza: Sonatine

[Casey Tucker]

hey guys and gals,
my quintet is looking at doing the bozza: sonatine in the next few months and i have a couple questions. 1.) after briefly looking at the part, the range doesn't seem to be a big issue with the highest note being a G above the staff and the lowest being a 4th line F below the staff. both of these pitches are easily done on my bass tuba and on my CC. which horn should i use? i haven't exactly had the time to sit down with it (just got it today via e-mail) and most of the work looks like it's in the middle register. anyone have any advice? 2.) the first movement is labeled Allegro Vivace whereas the third is marked Allegro Vivo with the quarter = 108. where should the quarter be at for the first movement? or what is commonly referred to as acceptable/within reason? thanks a lot!

-casey

[markaustinhowle]

I used a 6/4 CC the one time I performed it and it worked really well. I'll try to post audio link if you would like. That would give you info on the tempos that worked for our group. It has a very good tuba part by the way.

Mark Howle

[MikeMason]

That's quite a tuba collection in your signature.How bout a little show and tell?

[J.c. Sherman]

I did it on Euph. Seriously. But it'd work well with any small ax, for my taste.

J.c.S.

[ASTuba]

Why not play on what Harvey Phillips would have with the New York Brass Quintet? Something like a 2/3J? I've never been a fan of F tuba in quintet personally, but this is one that either tuba will work well. It just depends on what you want to have to work on - the low range of the 2nd movement on the F, or the technique needed in the 3rd movement.

[Adam C.]

The first movement works well around 126 bpm. 120-132 is a good area to shoot for.

[Art Hovey]

I performed it once on an F tuba, but I was not happy with the sound of the very exposed and very soft low Gs at the beginning of the second movement. If you can manage the high notes as Harvey did on a CC tuba I would vote for that. But if you can get a nicer low G out of your F tuba than I could out of mine, then go for it. Bozza had something more like a euphonium in mind, but he just didn't know what he was missing.

[Charlie Goodman]

I really don't like it on CC. I've heard a couple of recordings of it done this way (Portrait of an Artist?), and I don't like it as much. It seems counterintuitive to me, but the movement with the octave trombone/tuba opening (is it the last?) sounds awkward if the sound isn't balanced, which, to my ear, it isn't on these recordings.

That being said, I don't like the sound of contrabass tuba in quintet, for the most part. I think Charles Daellenbach does it as well, but his horn is miniscule.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I really don't like it on CC. I've heard a couple of recordings of it done this way (Portrait of an Artist?), and I don't like it as much. It seems counterintuitive to me, but the movement with the octave trombone/tuba opening (is it the last?) sounds awkward if the sound isn't balanced, which, to my ear, it isn't on these recordings.

So, are you saying it's harder to balance octaves with a trombone player if you're playing on a C tuba? I don't understand why that would be...I can play very softly on C tubas. Perhaps you meant a smaller tuba would make for a better blend in octaves with the trombone?

For what it's worth, I've played this quintet a few times, always on a C. Way too many gymnastics in the low range for me to imagine it on a smaller horn. But, I play the Concertino by Bozza on a C, as well. It's really not that hard to play light and "French style" on a bigger horn if you work at it (or it's all you have).

J.C., if you really played this on euphonium and pulled it off, you are my hero. I can't imagine the earlier-referenced gymnastics sounded very "tuba-like" in the near-pedal range of the euphonium, though. How about the solo lick towards the end of the last movement that spans G below the staff to G above the staff in just 8 notes? On euphonium? Yikes.

1st movement tempo...Adam C. is right on...just think Sousa (120).

You better have a couple of very good trumpet players with decent C trumpets, and an above-average trombonist as well to pull this off. That being said, the tuba part is the hardest one in my opinion.

[MikeMason]

As far as CC for quintet-the early Empire Brass stuff is pretty tasty.I think Mr. Pilafian used a 2145 MW on those(Class Brass, Class Brass on the Edge,Joy to the World,etc).

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I really don't like it on CC. I've heard a couple of recordings of it done this way (Portrait of an Artist?), and I don't like it as much. It seems counterintuitive to me, but the movement with the octave trombone/tuba opening (is it the last?) sounds awkward if the sound isn't balanced, which, to my ear, it isn't on these recordings.

So, are you saying it's harder to balance octaves with a trombone player if you're playing on a C tuba? I don't understand why that would be...I can play very softly on C tubas. Perhaps you meant a smaller tuba would make for a better blend in octaves with the trombone?....

I think that Charlie was really refering to the size of the horn, not the key. Most of us instinctively think of a CC horn as being LARGER than an F horn, but upon reflection, we all know that there is no direct correlation between the key & size of a horn.

Having said that, I think a smaller horn (F, Eb, CC, BBb, or GGG) is preferable for quintet playing. If for no other reason, it keeps your colleagues from having to work so hard to balance you, in loud passages. I think that it also promotes a "chamber music" sound for the group, rather than a "band" sound!

[Charlie Goodman]

I really don't like it on CC. I've heard a couple of recordings of it done this way (Portrait of an Artist?), and I don't like it as much. It seems counterintuitive to me, but the movement with the octave trombone/tuba opening (is it the last?) sounds awkward if the sound isn't balanced, which, to my ear, it isn't on these recordings.

So, are you saying it's harder to balance octaves with a trombone player if you're playing on a C tuba? I don't understand why that would be...I can play very softly on C tubas. Perhaps you meant a smaller tuba would make for a better blend in octaves with the trombone?

You're right. Wrong choice of words on my part.

[J.c. Sherman]

J.C., if you really played this on euphonium and pulled it off, you are my hero. I can't imagine the earlier-referenced gymnastics sounded very "tuba-like" in the near-pedal range of the euphonium, though. How about the solo lick towards the end of the last movement that spans G below the staff to G above the staff in just 8 notes? On euphonium? Yikes.

I will admit that for the accrobatics of this, I used a Bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece. Made the pedal Gs a breeze, and the top end an easy hit. I don't usually use this mouthpiece in quintet (confuses the heck out of my fingers to feel a tuba rim and having to finger single Bb), but I cheated.



As for contrabass in a quintet, it completely depends on the quintet. I'm fotunate that the qunitets I play with both have bass trombonists playing trombone (on Tenor), so they really know how to balance and play octaves with a Tuba! But freelancing, I'll always show up with the Eb (as well as bass bone and euph).

J.c. (who things a small F or tiny C would be just fine for the Bozza...)

[Toad Away]

For what it's worth ...... my 2 cents

This piece was extremely important to my development as a musician. I got the New York Brass Quintet album with Harvey Phillips all those many years ago when I was in High School.
Harvey's sound and virtuosity were a huge inspiration.
I bought the sheet music then and practiced the tuba part every day.
By the time I was in my 2nd year at North Texas, I was performing it w/several 5tets. Also performed it w/ Yale Brass Quintet.
Always on CC.

Forgive my stroll down memory lane, but when I get to
listen to this wonderful piece, I really want to hear it
on CC.

[Jobey Wilson]

If you have an F tuba that can produce the right color/mood on the low G's in the 2nd mvt, use it! The weight (not so much the volume) of those G's is most important. I first played it on my Alex CC (years ago) with a small mouthpiece, but for the last 8 years, I have ALWAYS used F in quintet. My current F (Gronitz PF-125) has an INCREDIBE low register, and could really be the perfect horn for the Bozza (though, we haven't played it since I bought the Gronitz).

To add to the general bass vs. contrabass tuba in quintet debate, I choose to always use F tuba in quintet. Simply, that's what works best for me and Triton.

[Casey Tucker]

thanks for the great advice! let me re-state that i HAVEN'T had the time to really sit down with the part. meaning, i glanced at the more challenging rhythmic combos and the range. i typically use my F for 5tet but have used the CC on certain pieces such as Gotham. as for the rest of the quintet, we have two VERY talented trumpet players and a great horn and trombonist. they all love the CC sound in quintet but do admit that the F helps them out a little. thanks again!

-casey

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I really don't like it on CC. I've heard a couple of recordings of it done this way (Portrait of an Artist?), and I don't like it as much. It seems counterintuitive to me, but the movement with the octave trombone/tuba opening (is it the last?) sounds awkward if the sound isn't balanced, which, to my ear, it isn't on these recordings.

So, are you saying it's harder to balance octaves with a trombone player if you're playing on a C tuba? I don't understand why that would be...I can play very softly on C tubas. Perhaps you meant a smaller tuba would make for a better blend in octaves with the trombone?

You're right. Wrong choice of words on my part.

No problem...I don't want to come off sounding like I'm keeping score. I just wanted to confirm that I understood what you meant.

I agree with you in principle...I would prefer an F tuba 95% of the time (I would estimate) in quintet, mostly because of the better blend with the other players. If I had one, that is.

Todd S. "who needs a good F tuba" Malicoate

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Casey,

Several of Bozzas tuba pieces are designed for the french C tuba, hence why some fingerings work well on CC tuba........

Many of his other pieces are for bass trombone....

James,

With all due respect, I sincerely doubt Bozza cared a fig how easy or hard the fingerings were on a particular key tuba when he composed his pieces for tuba. Your statement implies that he somehow created lines that "lay well" on the C tuba. If you ever play the Concertino on a C tuba, you will find out quickly how unlikely that is (I still get cramps just thinking about some of those cross-fingerings).

Also, unless I am mistaken (which I often am), Bozza only wrote one piece for bass trombone entitled "New Orleans" for bass trombone and piano.

I hope it's ok to respectfully disagree.

[jeopardymaster]

My quintet has programmed this twice, about 10 years apart. First time I used my 184, but then it was my only option. The next time when we started working on it I went to my 983. But I wound up reverting to the 184 - a little more heft to the sound, and lots of 'bark' when needed, plus my 184 slots really well. If we were talking about 4 Outings, however, or the Equale Dances or such - an F or, even better, an Eb would be dynamite. The Previn in particular; after all, he dedicated that one to Fletcher and, I suspect, consulted with the man extensively in its composition.

[windshieldbug]

I've always used a CC with a shallow(er) mouthpiece. And another vote for 120-132.