Due to the extreme gas prices...

[MikeMason]

Fear,like guilt,love,boredom,awe,etc.,serves a purpose.It can help keep us from making really big mistakes.Not to say we should make decisions on only emotions,but they do play a role.

[Rick Denney]

This is an unfortunate byproduct of our uber capitalist society, but what can you do?

You do what people do in an "uber capitalist society".

1. You design and bring to market products that allow people who want to pay less for fuel to use less of it. If fuel is expensive, the alternatives to it are marketable.

2. You buy stock in oil companies. The profits of the oil companies are enriching millions of people, and certainly not just rich people. Just about anyone with a 401K is getting some benefit from oil profits.

In order to do 1, you need capital. To get capital, you sell stock--a share of ownership in your company. If you hit it big, you share the profit with your co-owners. Everyone becomes richer and buys more tubas. That's how it works. That's why we are still the most creative and productive society on the planet, even though we are just a shadow of a real "uber capitalist society".

Or, you can tax the oil companies, tax fuel, and tax profits, so that those who risk their capital no longer see the reward for taking the risk, and then there really won't be any alternative to oil.

Rick "recognizing the complexity of details, but emphasizing the simplicity of principles" Denney

[MikeMason]

Yeah,cause all I really want is to buy more tubas!

[greatk82]

It will haul my stupid @$$ wife...

Wow. I guess someone's hoping that Mrs. Bloke doesn't spend too much time reading tubenet!





Sorry, Joe! Had to do it.

[MikeMason]

A simple comma can mean the difference between life and death...

[tubafatness]

It contributed to "global warming" so as to help push those RECORD COLD FRONTS in Iowa back up into Canada (folks who actually deserve that sort of misery )

Last semester, every time I walked to my 8:00 class in the south of campus during snow, ice and consistent 0 degree weather, I thought, "Global warming? Really?" That was ridiculous. Especially when that was the weather in March...

[jmerring]

I think the price of gas is false.Our liberal politicians have blocked every attempt to harvest the vast supply of oil,coal,and gas we have right in America and have blocked every attempt to build oil refineries or nuclear power plants,for which we have a world class supply of fuel.Let's make sure we place blame where it's due.Supply and demand would quickly adjust for the current situation without governmental meddling,IMO.

I absolutely agree with you, Mike. I only have to commute about 75 miles (round trip) once a week to my rehearsals/performances and about 90 miles every two weeks to visit my incapacitated sister, but the cost of fuel is strongly changing my other driving habits. If the US were to fully explore and refine it's own natural resources, along with getting out of the way of the manufacture of 50+ mpg cars; we would be in far better shape.

[J.c. Sherman]

Perhaps it's best not to chime in, but...

To say everything is fine, burning whatever, embracing our creativity level now, loveing everything about things as they are is, well, unambitious (sp?) at best. Shortsighted and selfdestructive at worst. As musicians (this is a music forum, right?), this is our goal - to acheive, to grow, to learn, to improve, and to look ahead to challenges, to challenge ourselves, and to adapt to problems and changes in out environment, our bodies, and our minds. The inability to adapt, well, that's not the best way to become all one may as a tubist, a person, or a nation.

J.c.S.

[Nick Pierce]

Perhaps it's best not to chime in, but...

To say everything is fine, burning whatever, embracing our creativity level now, loveing everything about things as they are is, well, unambitious (sp?) at best. Shortsighted and selfdestructive at worst. As musicians (this is a music forum, right?), this is our goal - to acheive, to grow, to learn, to improve, and to look ahead to challenges, to challenge ourselves, and to adapt to problems and changes in out environment, our bodies, and our minds. The inability to adapt, well, that's not the best way to become all one may as a tubist, a person, or a nation.

J.c.S.

Here here!!!

[Tubaryan12]

Adapt. It's what we all must do. Who pays for my extra gas? McDonalds, Burger King, the little chinese restaurant. I carry my lunch to work most days now, so I have the extra cash to keep buying gas. I've made adjustments to my spending that will allow me to keep doing what I really want to and not worry about gas prices. If gas gets higher, the following things will be on the chopping block: cell phone, cable, golf....and if it gets really bad, my Friday nights off (part time job for me again). That way, I can continue to do the things I really want to do: Community bands and orchestras, internet usage, tuba related purchases. If things were really bad, I wouldn't be on this computer, telling you all how I'm going to pay for the more expensive gas I pump into my 35mpg car , I would spend that time trying to earn more loot so that I can continue to sit here in my free time, laughing with you guys and reading about tubas. life is good. If it wasn't, for me, you wouldn't be reading this.

- Officials still lie to us and manipulate markets to our disadvantages.
- "Journalists" still carry water for - and propagate the lies of - officials.
- Most people still believe the crap they are fed by officials and journalists.

Yep, yup, and yeah.

[kingrob76]

Politics aside, I have to believe this technology is the way to go. A rundown:

- 270 miles range
- 100 mph top speed
- zero emissions

Yes, there is the pressurized tank of hydrogen (Hindenburg, anyone?) but I have to believe engineers have addressed the vast majority of safety issues in order to make it road-worthy. Now, I'm not "green" in any way, shape or form - I just bought a Toyota Avalon that gets about 21 mpg - but I'll be first in line for a car with this technology once a) they're available on the East Coast and b) there are enough Hydrogen refueling stations to make every day use even remotely realistic.

cNet has a nice video on the vehicle and the home power station concept that Honda is developing, which is even more promising.

[ThomasDodd]

Solar? This is the most efficient of all alternative energy options, albeit expensive. Obviously, the sun is a limitless resource (limitless in terms of:when it runs out of energy, then we'll have more things to worry about than how are we going to keep our television running). However, once again, to meet the world's current energy needs we would have to cover a space roughly the size of southern California with Solar panels from end to end. And while we have spaces on our planet for such a task (The Sahara for instance), the task of producing, installing and maintaining that many solar panels is a bit out of our reach at the moment.

Don't forget though, we currently do not have the supply of silicon (pure, in ingot/wafer form) to make the solar panels. Solar companies are working to make the wafers thinner so they use less silicon and can increase output given the limited supply of silicon.

Of course, it would move a lot faster if they had the kind of money poured into their research that NASA did to get to put a man on the moon in the 60s.

How much did the government invest i oil drilling technology? Refinery technology? Distribution networks?

Oh yeah, that was the free market, not the government. Even the Alaskan Pipeline was a private venture, that had to fight government hurdles and road blocks to get built.

[ThomasDodd]

pressurized tank of hydrogen (Hindenburg, anyone?) but I have to believe engineers have addressed the vast majority of safety issues in order to make it road-worthy.

The Hindenburg was not solely due to hydrogen. Many factors lead to the fire after a year of service. It was designed to use helium, which became unavailable in sufficient quantities in 1930s Nazi Germany. And similar Helium filled craft burned as quickly in the same time period.

Also not, only 36 died, fewer than any recent air-line crash. Most of the deaths were from jumping out instead of riding it to the ground (23 of36 passenger survived, 39 of 61 crewmen survived)
Hydrogen is not any more dangerous that other, more common fuels, and less dangerous than many. It's more fear mongering.

FWIW, I think hydrogen is the best near term solution for vehicles. Combustion first, in slightly modified engines. Later, full cells to generate electricity will take over. The hydrogen source being electrolysis and the electricity coming from multiple sources depending on available resources. Nuclear, water, coal, wind and solar all have their place.

[Dean]

Solar? This is the most efficient of all alternative energy options, albeit expensive. Obviously, the sun is a limitless resource (limitless in terms of:when it runs out of energy, then we'll have more things to worry about than how are we going to keep our television running). However, once again, to meet the world's current energy needs we would have to cover a space roughly the size of southern California with Solar panels from end to end. And while we have spaces on our planet for such a task (The Sahara for instance), the task of producing, installing and maintaining that many solar panels is a bit out of our reach at the moment.

Don't forget though, we currently do not have the supply of silicon (pure, in ingot/wafer form) to make the solar panels. Solar companies are working to make the wafers thinner so they use less silicon and can increase output given the limited supply of silicon.

The new solar technologies don't involve silicon at all.

http://www.nanosolar.com

This substance is essentially PRINTED onto an aluminum sheet. It can be produced much cheaper than current solar technology, and much faster. It is not as area-efficient as good silicon cells (energy produced per sq foot), but exponentially cheaper. Rumored to be sold for as little as $1 a watt. Really neat stuff. But, like the other neat stuff mentioned in this thread, it is not available to the average consumer yet (I think utility companies ARE getting this stuff now though).

[Rick Denney]

Is that why our economy is tanking and the US dollar is worth crap on the international market? Because we're just too creative and productive? I would look East and even South for productive and creative societies. Societies that actually care about the health and education of it's citizens, and societies that actually produce something that others want, instead of just getting others to do it for us. I'm not saying we're the worst society in the world. Far from it. But to think we're the best is just naive or wishful thinking.

Nothing keeping you from going there.

I've been to a lot of places, some of which are pretty spectacular. But most of them either disempower and babysit their citizens (while refusing to allow any more citizens to enter), or they make it impossible for their citizens to gain benefit from their own labor, or both. Most people in those countries resign themselves to their station in life. Those who refuse to do so often find themselves with a U.S. address, for some reason.

Rick "unwilling to predict long-term trends from short-term cycles with either the weather or the economy" Denney

[Rick Denney]

As musicians (this is a music forum, right?), this is our goal - to acheive, to grow, to learn, to improve, and to look ahead to challenges, to challenge ourselves, and to adapt to problems and changes in out environment, our bodies, and our minds. The inability to adapt, well, that's not the best way to become all one may as a tubist, a person, or a nation.

And what motivates such adaptation and growth? The ability to be rewarded for taking the risk. No societies are more sedentary than those where people are not able to reap the reward of taking investment risks, and commensurate with those risks.

Nobody had to persuade the American people to abandon their horses. In time, the economic advantage of transporting themselves by car or train (and, eventually, plane) made them abandon the use of the horse as a means of travel. If it becomes advantageous to travel by mass transit, or by bicycle, or by microcar, or electric car, or paper airplane, then people will shift to those modes without being ordered to. But it takes coercion to force them to change to those other modes when it is still economically preferred to continue their present mode.

Rick "noting that high fuel prices make it worthwhile to develop fuel-efficient vehicles, and to develop high-cost alternative fuel sources" Denney

[Rick Denney]

4/ Freon is a W-A-Y better thing to use in car air conditioners; It is FAR more efficient than substitutes, and uses W-A-Y less energy (gasoline) to power a FREON-filled air conditioner than an air conditioner that uses the mandated substitute inferior coolants.

Highly refined propane is better than R-12 (Freon). It runs at a much lower compressor head pressure. The amount in a typical system is not enough to light a good-sized cigarette, it's cheap, it's at least as effective as R-12 in refrigeration, it is compatible with all compressor lubricants, it has a big molecule that doesn't leak as easily, it isn't made solely by DuPont, and it doesn't affect the ozone. Because of lobbying by certain groups (back up about 20 words for a guess as to who), it is illegal as a replacement for R-134 in many states, and illegal as a replacement for R-12 in all states.

Which leads me to...

George Will said a sensible thing on the Charlie Rose show a couple of weeks ago: When you live in a highly regulated environment, the regulated will always be motivated to seek relief from the regulator. That's the reason for all those special-interest lobbyists.

Rick "who has run HC-12a in his motorhome's AC system for a couple of years" Denney

[Tom Waid]

Rick "noting that high fuel prices make it worthwhile to develop fuel-efficient vehicles, and to develop high-cost alternative fuel sources" Denney

An interesting twist on alternative fuels is occurring in the aviation industry. The only aviation gasoline that is now produced is 100LL, meaning 100 octane Low-Lead. The lead is necessary for high performance reciprocating aircraft engines to avoid a phenomenon known as detonation. The problem is the government does not like the lead and wants the industry to find an alternative. It would seem that Swift Enterprises in cooperation with Perdue University has arrived at a solution; an entirely new fuel manufactured from “bio-mass.” They’re not saying exactly how they’re doing it but they’ve developed a process of converting ethanol into this new fuel. The claims are hard to believe; 104 octane fuel that is totally compatible with existing piston aircraft engines at half the price.

If you have ten and a half minutes you can listen to a pod-cast about this fuel here.

If it is what they say Swift Enterprises is in a very sweet position; making the only viable alternative to a fuel that the government wants to ban.

As an airplane owner I am, of course, very interested in all this. But, am I ready to buy stock in the company?

Not now, it just sounds too good to be true.

After having said this, however, I can see me five years from now pumping this Indiana Go-Juice into my Cessna kicking myself for not buying a piece of the action. I’ll really be kicking myself when all of you are pumping it into your cars.

[ThomasDodd]

Rick "who has run HC-12a in his motorhome's AC system for a couple of years" Denney

In one of my vehicles now. Will be in the Cadillac when I get the system operational. Home and other vehicle when they need refrigerant, though maybe the vehicle sooner to lower the pressures and stress on the compressor. Not sure it makes sense to change the working home unit though, R22 is pretty good.

Nobody had to persuade the American people to abandon their horses. In time, the economic advantage of transporting themselves by car or train (and, eventually, plane) made them abandon the use of the horse as a means of travel.

At least someone else sees it.

noting that high fuel prices make it worthwhile to develop fuel-efficient vehicles, and to develop high-cost alternative fuel sources

I remember the alternative fuel people saying $50/bbl oil would do it. Then $100/bbl. Hasn't happened yet, though it just might. Oil has just been too cheap. It still is, at least compared to the alternatives so far. Some alternative might fair better if not for the government regulation getting i the way, like nuclear. Then again, it's government regulations that have lead to the state of the oil industry too (limited drill sites and refineries).

[Tom Waid]

Then there is the concept of making diesel from pond scum.