Pan American BBb Sousie arrived today!

[tokuno]

Bought a beater PanAM Sousie on eBay.
It was once satin silver (long, long ago from the looks of it), but it's now a blend of chipped glitter gold spray paint & tarnish-crazed very tired silver, with some lacquer slides, a missing bell bolt, and a creased bell. She's twice my age and beat bad with an ugly stick, but she's mine and she's beautiful!

Some stuff apparently rattled loose during shipping. I tipped it over, and out came:
1 wad of fiberglass insulation
2 rock-hard, marble sized pieces of chewed gum (I'm guessing cinnamon)
1 piece of crumpled up paper
1 used feminine napkin (old and dry- it was stained dark rust brown)

by the time I'd identified the last item, it was too late to don gloves. I actually didn't recognize it; my wife IDd it from 10 feet away on the sofa, and she was suddenly much less interested in my new beauty.

Questions (searched old TubeNet to no avail):
I'm unfamiliar with these horns. Through the gold spray paint on the bell, I can make out the Pan American inscription, but is there identifying information on the main body, too? I scrutinized the collar, and the only marking I've found is the unadorned serial number on the valve casing, and it doesn't fit on the ConnLoyalist's Pan American serials (although it matches up to ~1937 on the Conn serial chart), so I'm wondering if I have a mis-matched horn/bell set (although it plays fine, so not a big concern).

The horn is reasonably in tune, and 1st valve partials are ok except for c on the staff, which is painfully flat. 1+3, while stuffy, is closer. Is this par for the course on these horns?

One valve button missing, the other two mis-matched. Is there a "standard tuba" thread that means I can purchase a set of anything off the shelf, or do I need to spec a particular valve button make? Also, anyone know a source?

Thanks for any help you might offer. I'm looking at this well-worn beast, wishing I could toodle (kids in bed, nyet!), and pondering that I just bought myself a year-round storage hassle for one week per year of Christmas carols, and illogical as it seems, it feels great. Guess I got bit by the tuba bug.

[basstbone64]

1 used feminine napkin (old and dry- it was stained dark rust brown)

Ew.

The horn is reasonably in tune, and 1st valve partials are ok except for c on the staff, which is painfully flat. 1+3, while stuffy, is closer. Is this par for the course on these horns?

This is all pretty normal.

One valve button missing, the other two mis-matched. Is there a "standard tuba" thread that means I can purchase a set of anything off the shelf, or do I need to spec a particular valve button make? Also, anyone know a source?

Come down to Santa Cruz and we'll set you up. There are both generic buttons and replacements.

[iiipopes]

I'm surprised to hear the 2nd space C is so flat. Could there be an obstruction, or maybe it needs cleaning and valve alignment with new corks and felts? If there is an engraved ring on the valve stem, assuming it is original, the top of it should line up with the top of the valve cap, and as the felts compress over time, at the point you can see the whole engraved ring or a tad of stem below it, then it's time to replace valve caps.

Likewise, take the corks and felts out of the buttons, push them down all the way and play, then let up ever so slightly to see if intonation or tone gets better. At the point it is the most "open" feeling, that's where you cork and felt it to, or just the slightest tad more to allow for compression.

The horn should not be stuffy at all. I played its cousin, a Cavalier, for a couple of years, and a friend of mine in Shrine band still plays it. It is very open, with good intonation all around, including good false pedals. 1+3 should be slightly sharp, not flat, even if 3 is pulled and set for 2+3 to be in tune.

Sounds like a thorough cleaning is in order, not just for the unmentionables, but for all the other dirt, grime and gunk that accumulates from marching.

The top of the valves under the corks and felts should be engraved with the same serial number as the horn so you can tell if it has had any valves replaced. If it has replacement valves, they may need to be checked for rotational alignment as well as vertical alignment.

Keep us posted how it comes back to life!

[imperialbari]

Sounds like a Conn sousaphone with a replacement Pan American bell to me. In my personal (and therefore somewhat limited) experience I have never seen any markings on Conn sousaphone bodies outside of serial numbers on the valve set and (sometimes) a model number heavily stamped into the bell collar. The bells will sometimes have the same inside the tenon. So it the serial number lines up with the list as one type then that is probably (but not certainly) what you have. See whether there are markings inside your bell tenon.

Pachy, at least my 40K, 26K, and 28K spanning the years from 1928 through 1943 have matching 2-digit numbers on the two rings, on the bell and on the body, respectively, which will meet, when the sousaphone is assembled. The numbers are insignificant in determining model numbers. These 2-digit numbers were discussed long ago here on the list. Whether it was the general conclusion of the discussion or just the conclusion of mine is out in the mist of far memories:

These 2-digit numbers indicate matched bells and bodies, which might get separated during the final stages of producing that batch of sousaphones, buffing, engraving, plating, or whatever.

However Conn was one of the factories practicing, what I call modular production. The Conn line was the top version in the old days. Pan American had most of the same parts, but had simplified stays and bow guards. Matching a Conn body with a Pan American bell should pose no playing problems at all, as both lines were made after the same acoustical design.

The modular portion of the production was taken rather far. All Conn's since the twenties and until the renaming circus deriving from the long series of company mergers can be played with the same necks independently of the pitch being Eb or BBb or the bore being 0.689" or 0.732". bloke even says that the bells of the Eb 26K's and 28K's can be exchanged freely with the bells of the BBb 14K.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre.

who also would like to have good photos of this instrument - likely a before as well as an after set, as this instrument sort of invites itself to have its surface cleaned

[tokuno]

I heard a rattling today, and a pencil stub tumbled out. Quite the hornucopia. I'm amusedly wondering what else might've been discarded in there over the years. A bath should help settle the matter.

Thank you, everyone, for all the tips. It helps to know where to look. Despite the paint, I can clearly see "32K" inscribed on the bell collar, and the body matches up well with the 32k pictures I've seen, including the shoulder brace (nice, unexpected bonus).

Although it looks like a leprosy carrier on the outside and a Hepatitis threat on the inside, I find its homeliness kind of endearing, and I'm tempted to leave it as-is (excepting a bath).

However, the possibility of finding a swan inside the ugly duckling will probably lead me to at least strip the glitter paint and polish the underlying silver. I'll take "before" pics prior to any makeover activity, with an eye toward someday having a before/after gallery.

Thanks, again.

[WakinAZ]

For any finger buttons, etc., I'd recommend http://thebandroom.biz/01_cat_brasswind.php Not the fastest shippers around, but I've had good luck with them and their prices are reasonable.

Enjoy,
Eric "who loves playing sousaphone" L.

[CTAYLOR]

Just because it has 32K stamped on the collar doesn't mean it's a Conn with a Pan American bell. It could very well be a Pan American sousa. During production they often used Conn parts for Pan American horns or vice versa. Ex. they could have ran out of Pan American bell collars, valve caps,....etc, and used Conn parts. The parts often got mixed up with different horns. I played on a Conn 32K in high school which had matching serial #'s on the inside bell collar and on the body. But it had the flat Pan American bracings instead of the ridged ones normally used on Conns, and some more traits from the Pan American line instead of Conn.

[MartyNeilan]

1 used feminine napkin (old and dry- it was stained dark rust brown)

… too bad there is no smilie for tasting stomach upset in the back of your throat…

How about this one, Robert?

Wade,
I was waiting for you to put up the "one soiled" pic

[tokuno]

A quick rinse yielded one more (hopefully last) item: ~1-1/2" inches of a wood-sticked cotton swab.

For the record:

Copy of IMG_0155.JPG

I haven't seen closeups of Conn vs. Pan American. Are these the braces/ferrules that indicate which it is?

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This explains the "marbleing" effect on the original silver; the spray paint crazed, and the tarnish patterns followed the cracks.

[tokuno]

Bell's seen smoother days

copy of IMG_0112.jpg

Bow's clear of major denting - not bad for a 72-year old

copy of IMG_0127.jpg

I imagine the slides took a beating, thus the lacquer replacements

copy of IMG_0135.jpg

The valves are not original - each has its own serial #.

I dunno - somehow in the pictures it looks worse than I thought. In person, it's got a great personality
Fortunately, the horn was poorly prepped before painting, so some of the gold paint is already flaking off. I'm hoping the rest will submit to Jasco. The underlying silver (if it's still there) should shine up nicely after the paint's gone.

However, even if I can't clean up the cosmetics, I'm pleased with how it plays, and with a garland or two and some twinkly Christmas lights, it'll bring joy to my world.

[TUbajohn20J]

Yep that's definately a Pan American sousa, not a Conn

[tokuno]

The serial is 313nnn.
Since this is a frankenconn Pan American (Conn-like serial # & 32k collar), is there any way to date it?
Can I assume that the valve body was a spare 1936 Conn unit that was used in the same year to build this Pan American, as a contemporary to its Conn brethren, or did PanAm use Conn parts that had been lying about for a couple decades before being incorporated into a new Pan American, some years after the equivalent serial-# Conns were produced?

Not that it matters, I guess, but I like the notion of owning/playing a horn that's as old as the SF Bay Bridge.

[TUbajohn20J]

I dont think your horn is part Conn and part Pan American. It is 100% Pan American. With that serial number you gave, it is from the 60's. But yes Pan American did often use spare parts off Conn's such as the bell collar like on yours, and valve caps etc..

[TUbajohn20J]

The tiniest details lead me to believe that your horn is Pan American, not part Conn. Here is an actual 32K along side yours. Your finger buttons, even though are mix-matched, are of the Pan American variety. Also, your valve screws are "ridged" like the Pan americans. The conn's are straighter. Also the brace that i have circled in between the 1st and 3rd valve slides are different.. (just more of the Conn-Pan American differences). Yes they probably used a 32K bell collar for yours maybe because they ran out? or maybe accidentally got mixed in with the others somehow. Hope this helps

[tokuno]

I stripped the gold glitter paint off my Pan American, and woof, what a homely beast. (otoh, it'll likely never be stolen )

Notes to self/warnings to others re Jasco premium paint remover:
1) Permeates Costco nitrile gloves (unnaturally warm and tingly hands)
2) Long-sleeved shirt = good idea

Two unexpected discoveries:
1) the bell "rings" without the paint's dampening effect. I can simulate the painted sound by reaching up and palming the back of the top of the bell while I'm playing. I prefer the "painted" sound, so I'll try the home-repair-store-flexible-tubing-around-the-bell's-rim technique.

2) the bell appears as expected: worn satin silver finish, but the main body appears white. Not silver-white, but white-white. I'll try silver polish, but I'm wondering if there was a non-silver substrate. Folks say these horns were often nickel-plated, but I've searched the I'net in vain for anything indicating that preparation for either nickel or silver would leave a matte, fiberglassy-like white undercoat. I think it's not paint.

rIMG_0318.jpg

rIMG_0319.jpg

rIMG_0273.jpg

[tubatom91]

That is a very interesting finish. It seems like some at home plating job gone wrong (or right), depending on how you look at it. anyways, very cool instrument.

[WakinAZ]

For any finger buttons, etc., I'd recommend http://thebandroom.biz/01_cat_brasswind.php Not the fastest shippers around, but I've had good luck with them and their prices are reasonable.

Enjoy,
Eric "who loves playing sousaphone" L.

I am going to retract this recommendation. I have registered a Better Business Bureau complaint about "The Bandroom" re: a part sent in for exchange that was never replaced. Avoid them - bad business practices and poor communication. I just don't want someone else to go through this. Thank goodness it is a smallish amount of money.

[rocksanddirt]

love the look of the stripped bell....

yeah, some tubing around the rim might dampen the ringing.

I bet the body cleans up pretty nice with some polish/making sure you've got it clean clean.

looks in great shape! hope you get to play it lots.

[iiipopes]

...yeah, some tubing around the rim might dampen the ringing.

It definitely will. 3 1/2 feet of clear 5/16 o.d. tubing at a home improvement store or hardware store will probably cost less than $1. Slit it lengthwise and thread it onto the rim, let it settle on for a day or two, as it will stretch as you put it on, then trim to length. I have that on both the 186 and the 38K, my friend has it on his Jupiter euph, another friend has it on his MW11. It's the most cost effective "mod" you can do to a horn to get more core to the sound. I wish I had known about this before I spent the $$ on the lead tape for the rim of the Cavalier.