Tuba as a jazz instrument?

[chipster55]

Check out this link:
http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/store.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank This is Jim Self's website.

I've got a couple of the jazz recordings and they're very good. IMHO, the tuba is a great jazz instrument. I'm attempting to learn some jazz pieces. It's a lot more than just reading notes on the page.

[eupher61]

Howard Johnson. 'nuff said. It's just too bad he hasn't done more recording as a lead horn.

[The Jackson]

I think I see the point you are trying to make here, ST. The tuba as a jazz instrument is kind of in a league of its own for the most part, but I think it could work in mainstream jazz. I'd probably go more specific and say a small bass tuba. A contrabass tuba, even a small one (I think) would simply be too "hokey", and become muddled up with the bass line and piano (or treble guitar).

I played some tuba in middle school jazz band, but it was mainly to back up the bass guitarist. (I did bust a few solos though! )

[ken k]

Unfortunately, John Q. Public has a preconcieved notion or opinion that tuba is not a solo or lead instrument in any musical idiom, not just jazz.

The question should be more like, "Are there any jazz musicians who play tuba?"

Obviously if you listen to HoJo or Dave Bargeron on any of HJ Gravity albums you have to say of course it can or yes there are.

side note: I remember back in college I was having trouble on a lick in jazz band on an arrangement Frank Lacy wrote. (Frank just happened to be at Rutgers at the same time I was.) So he proceeds to pick up my tuba and blow a chorus of Confirmation that would make anyone take notice. It most certainly was a jazz instrument that day!

In the New Orleans idiom of music tuba is integral. I am not talking about just Dixieland, but also second line type stuff like Dirty Dozen Brass Band, Bonerama, or Rebirth Brass Band. All one has to do is listen to Matt Perrine or Nat McIntosh.

But outside of that I think most people in the general music consuming public would not consider it a jazz instrument.

However to counter your question, I would also ask, "Who else, on any instrument today, is equal to a Coltrane, Parker, Davis, or even Getz, Rosolino, or Fontana in terms of changing the way their instrument is perceived or played?" I would say no one, let alone a tuba player.

I understand where you are coming from with your question however. As much as I love to listen to Sam Pilafian for example, he certainly is not a mainstream jazz musician nor a household name as it were. Even though I doubt anyone would argue that he doesn't have "chops". Again mostly due to the bias most listeners would have to the tuba as a lead instrument.

Perhaps this bias is due to the idea of the tuba being thought of as a background instrument rather than a solo instrument.

ken k

[Donn]

Is it possible? Is the tuba a jazz instrument? Can it used effectively in straight-ahead modern jazz?

I'm sure you're right, it's ill suited to replace a saxophone etc. in that format. Maybe that's so obvious it isn't very interesting, but then maybe that role isn't a very interesting one any more, anyway. I mean, would a Coltrane of the tuba be sweating over whether he was `straight-ahead' enough?

If there are no tuba playing giants of jazz, it's because

• tuba players characteristically are not up to it?
• the tuba has a somewhat limited range of expressive potential?
• contrabass instruments aren't heard well by most listeners?
• jazz players fear the tuba and won't have anything to do with you?

[dwaskew]

well, I'm not sure about the "not up to it" side of things as an argument. I think it's more of a "coming out of the cocoon" process. in my years of observation, we, as a tuba family, only recently have had young "prodigies" in the classical music side of things--Roland Szentpali and Carol Jantsch coming first and most recently to mind, but there are others, too (Bobo, for instance). This idea of prodigy-on-tuba relates to the jazz question at hand, in that it just takes time. The concept of a musically advanced young person "wasting" their talent on tuba is one we still have to fight, and the idea of a "jazz star" on tuba is similar. To some degree or another, we have to wait for the right person. Who knows when/where, etc. but it likely will happen. Self/Sass/Carolino/Kac/Murphy/Exley and others are doing a great job-- for now we can just sit back and enjoy listening to them (and all of the euphoniumists, too--Ball/Dickman/Yamaoka, et al)

[Donn]

Are his bullet points true? Not up to it? Limited expressive potential? Are we pariahs?

Maybe it would help to consider the euphonium's role in jazz.

[UDELBR]

None of these names stand up to those of Coltrane, Parker, Davis, or even Getz, Rosolino, or Fontana...

Gosh. I wouldn't even try to talk you out of a silly opinion like that. Don't know who you've been listening to, but they're not the guys that are out there truly doing it. Is it possible you have the same "that's OK...for a TUBA" thing the rest of the world has?

Truth told, the fact that you equate "commercial players" with "hardcore jazzers" says a whole lot. Jingles and club dates do not equal "hardcore jazz".

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Is it possible? Is the tuba a jazz instrument? Can it used effectively in straight-ahead modern jazz?

I'm not talking about the fitting of a square peg in a round hole like tuba players always try to do. I'm sure people will list off several names that we all have heard...

None of these names stand up to those of Coltrane, Parker, Davis, or even Getz, Rosolino, or Fontana... Not in sales or regard by jazzers.

I have a lot of friends that are commercial players. Hardcore jazzers. The school I went through bred them. You either were or you weren't...

When is that last time you heard a straight-head jazz (would you know it if you heard it?) tuba player blow through some bebop changes? And not sound like the band's uncoordinated cousin?

Tell me now...

Funny!!!!
Bebop, the jazz of the late 40's and early 50's is 60 years old and nothing about it is modern. Is it great? Sure! Tuba players of that era were not included in the classic ensembles (save one), and they are not included in the ensembles of today that try to authentically recreate 60 year old music.
Rosolino? Fontana? Half the people on this board don't know who they are, they are held in high esteem in their niche market, I'd have a hard time believing their record sales made a blip on anyone's radar. As far as players playing modern jazz. Define it, and I'm sure you'll find a slew of players.

Davis playing over changes? What tune are you talking about specifically?

Coltrane playing over changes? Sure, til it became boring for him and he moved on to his career defining work.
I've never heard anybody else on any instrument play bebop like Charlie Parker. No one, not even close.
As the (jazz) music has moved forward, the tuba has joined in. I've heard Matt Perrine, Jon Sass, and Bob Stewart playing jazz over changes. It seems that the "changes" have changed and the modern players have adapted. Stephan Kac sounds awesome on his online stuff with the "Stick" player, though I can't imagine they can recreate a bebop ensemble with those instruments.
Bob Stewart's record tries to (re)create what would have happened if the string bass hadn't replaced the tuba in jazz, Sam Pilafian's records certainly demonsrate a command of the 'changes', and he puts himself in the midst of players who are amazingly able to accompany him. Perhaps we haven't had the right band to play in until these modern times.
What is it you hope to prove with your questions or the answers you receive?
Peace.
ASG

and as an edit: Coltrane is one of my top 10 favorite musicians ever

[NDSPTuba]

I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of Jazz. Mostly because it is hard to tell one song from the next. A lot of chord changes with someone noodling over the top of them. Usually without much musical direction and made up of phrases lasting as long as they have breath. Big breath, noodle noodle noodle, Big breath, noodle noodle noodle, etc ....... I realize my take might offend and has some origin in my lack of education on the genre, and I've probably not listened to the "right" artists to truly understand what it can be. But I have tried to learn an appreciation for Jazz and outside of Big Band stuff, I just don't have much use for it. Now when it comes to a tuba being a Jazz solo instrument it becomes Really Big Breath, noodle, Really Big Breath, noodle. It just doesn't flow and has even less musical direction. JMHO

[ArnoldGottlieb]

What is it you hope to prove with your questions or the answers you receive?


and as an edit: Coltrane is one of my top 10 favorite musicians ever

I hope to prove that there are thoughts occurring in the minds of the Tubenet masses other than "horn of the month, mouthpiece of the month, silver or lacquer..."

ASG with Coltrane on the brain. Cool...

Wow....do I get a scooby snack?
Between this and my last post I was practicing (imagine), and as I thought about Coltrane and I played with Abersold records, I realized that it's hard for my own ears to hear those upper harmonic structures that Coltrane played so beautifully (although ST, I still maintain he's not play "changes" at the time period I'm thinking of) when I'm trying to play them on the tuba. 9ths and 13ths sounds like seconds and sixths, it's hard to play over it harmonically while being in a lower octave. However, I'm still trying, and it doesn't affect my income one way or another if I ever get there or not.
So, I'm going to stay in the bubble. I'm going to keep buying CD's and going to hear the brave few that step out of it.
As far as the public is concerned, they don't know who any tuba players are anyway, they don't know 3 violin players, and they don't know who Charlie Parker is either. Why any artist does what they do is a question only they can answer. It's easier to paint houses or "Velvet Elvis's" than to create art with paint, yet a few would never consider it. How many great jazzers do any of us know who could make more money playing weddings, yet they don't.
It's monday and it's my 'bubble' day. I'm going back.
Peace.
ASG

[UDELBR]

Uncle Beer is out...

Haven't a clue what that means. Those who disagree with me may still participate in the "Haterz poll": viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13137&p=105580#p105580" target="_blank" target="_blank

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Uncle Beer is out...

Haven't a clue what that means. Those who disagree with me may still participate in the "Haterz poll": viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13137&p=105580#p105580" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

No, nothing like that. We like UncleBeer!!!

I don't know him but I like Beer.
ASG

[eupher61]

Like a frothy Franziskaner at breakfast, Uncle Beer is outstanding. I know who he is, so I can affirm he is as good as two Franziskaners at breakfast. Or any time, day or night.

Second (or third or 10 millionth) that opinion.

Uncle Beer certainly has the creds.

[Donn]

Like a frothy Franziskaner at breakfast, Uncle Beer is outstanding.

Is it possible? Is beer a breakfast drink? Can it used effectively to start off a modern, straight-ahead day?

[SplatterTone]

I guess I'm a little vague on the term "jazz." To me, it's kind of like "classical" music, as in: Do you mean Bach, or do you mean Stravinsky? Note that "La création du monde, ballet for orchestra, Op. 81" by Darius Milhaud is considered "jazz." Anyway, my hero is Vince Giordano.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Yeah,
Vince is great.
And I attempted to raise the same question about jazz before, what is it?
Peace.
ASG

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I must be sick. I need a beer.

Doc

I feel fine. I need a beer.
ASG

ps, really trying to answer scooby's question but beer is more fun

[ken k]

what is jazz?

Yogi Berra's Explanation of Jazz

Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?

Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation

The other half is the part people play while others are playing

something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the

wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if

you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's

wrong.


Interviewer: I don't understand.

Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand

it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.


Interviewer: Do you understand it?

Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't

know anything about it.

Interviewer: Are there any great jazz player alive today?

Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for

the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that

the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead.

Interviewer: What is syncopation?

Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either

before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when

they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other

types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something

different from those other kinds.

Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.

Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz

that well.

ken "sorry to take this thread off topic, but I could resist using this old joke" k

[tubajoe]

A few years ago there was a long panel discussion on this exact subject on TubaNews.com. I was fortunate enough to be on that panel, but the article is not up there anymore. I found a draft of my contribution, here is an excerpt (slightly updated), I thought it would be applicable here... good thread, BTW.

(PS - I try to avoid the term "jazzer", while I do play one on TV, I like to think I'm just as at home hokin Tchaik with a section...)

Panel question:
Instruments like the sax and trumpet seem to have established themselves
as the "accepted" jazz solo instruments. There must be a reason for this.
What is your take on this statement, and how do you view the tuba as a solo
instrument in a jazz setting?

Response:
Sax and Trumpet, as instruments, are mainly established because of the (sometimes unfortunate) historical emphasis in jazz. Many mainstream “jazz” musicians are extremely traditional and academic and believe that for something to be real “jazz” it has to fit into a certain historical mold, and that someone has to have already set some precedent beforehand. It seems that be-bop has become the traditional mold for much mainstream jazz, and since that era did not include any tuba luminaries, then the tuba must not belong… right? Wrong! We all know better!!

The tuba is a very young instrument. We are only 2 or 3 generations into the life of the tuba where there are people who can play the thing at a high level. When jazz was in its heyday, there were not any tuba players around that were able or willing to push it in that environment (or that got noticed anyway) ...the way that sax, trumpet, trombone, and piano players did.

As for it being a solo instrument in a jazz situation, I think ANY instrument can be a solo instrument in ANY type of music!!


Panel question:
What are the specific challenges you see tubists facing as jazz
soloists, and what skills must a tubist develop to overcome these
challenges?

Response:
The first challenge is overcoming historical presumption and general public opinion of the tuba. Simply put, most folks (outside of our tubaworld) don’t know how the tuba really can sound!! As tubists we have a responsibility to SHOW the world how great the tuba can sound and what it is capable of (and this includes avoiding the typical schtick etc) and that it is indeed a serious musical instrument with unique and beautiful characteristics, not just fodder for comic strips.

The next challenge is that of jazz traditions (and traditionalists) which are trying to relive a bygone era and choose to exclude the tuba. You can play their tunes if you want, as some of them are nice, but honestly the compulsories in jazz irritate me. To apply the logic of compulsories to other genres shows just how ludicrous it is: Imagine that a rock band MUST play a required amount of Beatles and Zepplin tunes before considering themselves "real" rock musicians.

The final challenge is SONICS. The sound of the tuba takes up lots of space. Some players deal with this by soloing in a very high range where it can be heard over a traditional rhythm section, and often playing it on a much smaller horn. Personally, I think that the tuba’s big, fat, round, heavy, low, consuming, pounding, wonderful, flowing sound is its BEST asset and is the exact and specific thing that makes us unique. It has sonic characteristics that NO other instrument possesses. I feel that playing everything higher and/or on a smaller instrument is too much of a sacrifice for me. I love huge sounds that vibrate your soul. I like to operate in a situation or setting where I can “let the tuba be the tuba”.

Choosing the right instrumentation and players are key. A standard jazz combo (bass, pno, drums) is NOT an ensemble that works for me. The bass gets in the way of the range I like to play in (and the range that I think the tuba sounds best in). When soloing/improvising I like to be in a situation where there is no other bass and I am in control of what happens in that range – so there is nothing to compete with!

It is all about creating something new. As tuba players we are at an EXTRAORDINARY place in time. Most people don’t really know what we can do and I believe that they DO want to find out. The slate is clean!

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I'd like to get something together - like a Handel, Bach, Muddy Waters flamenco type of thing...if I could get that sound, I'd be happy.
-Jimi Hendrix
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Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny.
-Frank Zappa
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Dont play whats there, play whats not there.

Those people who say theres no music but bop are just stupid; it shows how much they dont know.

If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.
-Miles Davis