Sousaphone vs. Contra

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
Leland
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Leland »

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Really, is there ever a situation where you have to choose between the two?
As a band director or a marching member (current or former) who's been granted some input regarding new purchases -- yes, you'd have to choose.

A lot of the time, of course there's no choice. Santa Clara Vanguard would switch to sousaphones just as soon as Ohio State would switch to contras.
User avatar
Todd S. Malicoate
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2378
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Todd S. Malicoate »

Okay, I'll rephrase the question...

I'm reasonably sure no DCI, DCA, or DC-whatever groups use sousaphones. Please enlighten me if someone knows of such a group that does.

But are there marching bands, be them college, high school, or otherwise, that use contras? Not convertible tubas, real contras?
User avatar
Leland
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Leland »

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:They may also be two of just a very small number of people who give a &^#%.
Besides, somebody's got to give a &^#%. ;) A tuba section that's thinking of switching to contra has to know what they're getting themselves into. I even put together a how-to book for the Marine band in Okinawa when they changed to convertible Kanstuls.

Sousaphone is a bit simpler to start using, honestly -- put it on, get the bits right, and go. But, that simplicity can be offset by drill demands that weren't in existence when the sousaphone was invented. Contra is even simpler, hardware-wise. However, it puts more responsibility on the performer to use correct posture and technique -- because while a mediocre-marching sousaphone section still doesn't look too bad, a mediocre-marching contra section looks pretty awful. Sousaphones pointing at slightly different angles really don't look too different from each other; contras pointing at slightly different angles make it look like the section doesn't know WTF they're doing. :lol:

If I want to quickly evaluate whether a drum corps is marching well as a whole, I watch the contras. If they move smoothly, can point the horns in the right direction (in.. um, both X and Y axes ;)), and can hold them straight when they've got them "horns down", and they do it no matter what drill they're marching, the rest of the entire corps is almost certainly marching very well.
Todd S. Malicoate wrote:But are there marching bands, be them college, high school, or otherwise, that use contras? Not convertible tubas, real contras?
Honestly, I have no idea; I'm pretty far out of the competitive band scene. Most of the reason to use convertibles, of course, is to use one set of horns for both marching & concert band, and getting a set of dedicated contra tubas is a pretty tough sell to a school board or the band boosters. In practical, on-the-field terms, there's very little difference between convertibles and marching-only contra tubas, so all the techniques are the same.

There are no corps that use sousaphones; they're forbidden by the rules. Besides, even if given the opportunity, I don't think any of them would use them for the reasons I've given earlier.

A few corps these days keep their horns for only a couple/three years, then sell them off. I'm assuming that those horns are going to other corps with smaller budgets, but there could be some going into school programs. The Cadets were actually renting out their Yamaha contras in the fall, and that was before the switch to Bb/F -- they were using YBB-201M tubas, modified with tuning slides that dropped them to the key of GG, and switched them back to BBb before renting them out.
Nick Pierce
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Nick Pierce »

If I remember correctly, one or two school out here may have true contra-esque horns, or at least I seem to remember seeing horns with valves that I cannot picture on convertible horns, unless there are convertibles with changeable valve sections. Are there?
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by imperialbari »

Nick Pierce wrote:If I remember correctly, one or two school out here may have true contra-esque horns, or at least I seem to remember seeing horns with valves that I cannot picture on convertible horns, unless there are convertibles with changeable valve sections. Are there?
Nick Pierce
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Nick Pierce »

imperialbari wrote:
Nick Pierce wrote:If I remember correctly, one or two school out here may have true contra-esque horns, or at least I seem to remember seeing horns with valves that I cannot picture on convertible horns, unless there are convertibles with changeable valve sections. Are there?
So I can change the valves on those convertible model so it goes from being a contra to a concert horn? Interesting.

How does it work?
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by imperialbari »

An earlier incarnation of the Kanstul site had photos showing the tuba in its two playing postions. Without knowing the exact details this may work in style with the French horns at the Paris conservatory prior to 1900. The valve block is mounted in a detachable slide, which may replace a plain slide.

Kanstul may have made a body ready to accept two tuning slides. Depending on the playing task the slide with the valves is placed in the relevant position.

Klaus
User avatar
Leland
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Leland »

Nick Pierce wrote:So I can change the valves on those convertible model so it goes from being a contra to a concert horn? Interesting.

How does it work?
Klaus remembers correctly --

On the Kanstul horns, you basically detach the whole valve section, then turn it 180 degrees.

A side effect is that, in concert configuration, the valveset is fairly low, almost at waist/tummy level. For marching, it's the other way around -- it's kind of high, closer to the bell, making the player reach upwards (and more than I would like, frankly).
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by imperialbari »

Found this photo of the 5/4 convertible at a non-Kanstul site:

Image

Leland may be able to explain the details. I have some ideas about how it works, but I cannot be sure.

Klaus
User avatar
Leland
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Leland »

Actually, that one looks like a non-convertible; I don't see suports & braces that would screw together, and the valve tubing doesn't have the compact bends like the versions pictured in these links:

http://www.kanstul.net/pages/instruments/marbrass.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.kanstul.net/pages/instrument ... 202cm.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.kanstul.net/pages/instrument ... 201cm.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.kanstul.net/pages/instrument ... 200cm.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
User avatar
Todd S. Malicoate
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2378
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Todd S. Malicoate »

So, what makes a contra a contra? Is it any over-the-shoulder tuba that's not also a convertible? Kanstul calls theirs "marching tubas," but what's the difference between that and a contra? Is there one?

Contra is short for "contrabass bugle," correct?

I guess I always thought the "contra" was a marching tuba that happens to be used by a drum corps, much in the same way they use soprano bugles instead of trumpets. Have things changed since I was younger, or am I just wrong?
User avatar
Leland
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Leland »

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:So, what makes a contra a contra? Is it any over-the-shoulder tuba that's not also a convertible? Kanstul calls theirs "marching tubas," but what's the difference between that and a contra? Is there one?

Contra is short for "contrabass bugle," correct?

I guess I always thought the "contra" was a marching tuba that happens to be used by a drum corps, much in the same way they use soprano bugles instead of trumpets. Have things changed since I was younger, or am I just wrong?
"Contra" used to be short for "contrabass bugle pitched in G", but since the rule change in DCI and DCA that allows Bb instruments (and F mellophones), G horns are getting pretty darn rare. So, for our purposes, we'll call "over-the-shoulder marching tubas that may or may not be convertible"... "contras".

"Tubas" can't really apply because there are a lot of tuba-voiced instruments that people march with; "marching tubas", at a stretch, can refer to the Conn 20Js that a few university bands use. "Contra" narrows it down pretty quick, IMO, so I'll stick with it.

As I said, while marching, there is little to no practical difference between almost any current convertible and a dedicated marching horn. There were aberrations in the past, like the Conn convertible that had a front-action concert configuration and you'd switch the 1st and 3rd valve slides and carry it on the right shoulder for marching, working the valves on the outboard side of the horn with your right hand's fingers pointed to the sky. Now, thankfully, the latest crop of marching tubas have been really good, designed with input from some of the bigger tuba celebrities out there.
Nick Pierce
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Nick Pierce »

BenjaminB wrote:This page made it much clearer to me, it may help some other folks: http://www.kanstul.net/pages/miscpgs/convert.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
Now I get it, thanks.
User avatar
David Richoux
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, mostly. Also Greater Seattle at times.

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by David Richoux »

[quote="BigDale"] Anyone that says a fiberglass sousie sounds better has obviously never played one before--they carry the sound for about 5 feet in front of the bell.
===
You might not have heard the Sousaphone section of the LSJUMB in top form - I sat in with them off and on for about 10 years and there was usually never a problem with too low volume! It all depends on how you play the horn, not so much the horn. I have some brass and some glass Sousaphones, a few helicons, and a few tubas - they all have their good and bad points. IF I am going to be marching around and playing for more than a few hours at a whack I will probably choose my 1980s Olds fiberglass horn.

I played in the USN Drum and Bugle Corps (San Diego) in 1969 - all we had for low brass were about Baritone size, 2 valve bugles. I asked if there were any plans to buy the then "latest thing" in Contras, got no reply before I left that group. Anything would have helped!
Last edited by David Richoux on Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Quicksilvertuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:06 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by Quicksilvertuba »

Todd S. Malicoate wrote: But are there marching bands, be them college, high school, or otherwise, that use contras? Not convertible tubas, real contras?
Actually, my school (UTexas Arlington) just switched from sousaphones to contras this year (leased from Crossmen).
User avatar
pwhitaker
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:58 pm
Location: Springvale, Maine

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by pwhitaker »

bloke wrote:Image
I agree with Bloke.
MISERICORDE, n.
A dagger which in mediaeval warfare was used by the foot soldier to remind an unhorsed knight that he was mortal.
- Devil's Dictionary - Ambrose Bierce
User avatar
tubaguy9
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 943
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: I pitty da foo!
Contact:

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by tubaguy9 »

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:So, what makes a contra a contra? Is it any over-the-shoulder tuba that's not also a convertible? Kanstul calls theirs "marching tubas," but what's the difference between that and a contra? Is there one?

Contra is short for "contrabass bugle," correct?

I guess I always thought the "contra" was a marching tuba that happens to be used by a drum corps, much in the same way they use soprano bugles instead of trumpets. Have things changed since I was younger, or am I just wrong?
Actually, you're completely right. All DCI World Class corps use now is Marching Tubas. NOT convertables or contras. I was in the last line that used real contras.
That's one of those passionate touchy subjects for me...and you may notice it by my signature.

As far as contras vs. marching tubas vs. sousas, sousas are good for a marching band. Kids in marching band would whine constantly about it, where as the other 2, the kids in corps can handle it. When I was on Contra, I couldn't outblow the horn. I could do whatever I wanted playing it, and it would take it like a tank. My second year however, the horn was easier to blow, and also easy to overblow.
But then again, just my $.02 worth.
I think I might end up as a grumpy old man when I get old...
User avatar
The Jackson
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Miami, FL

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by The Jackson »

I heard that a local Superior™-rated band already put in an order for five!


They sold all of their trophies for the cash. :V
rocksanddirt
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:14 pm

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by rocksanddirt »

interesting discussion.

I have zero experience with contra's in any form.

The sound of a good sousaphone in a marching band setting is wonderful. I disagree that tone is sacrificed, good sousaphone tone is just different than good tuba tone.

I can see where in the competition corps setting sousaphones would not be great (the look is not static enough). In my listening experience, a single sousaphone played by a strong player can be heard in a stadium that seats 75,000, a shoulder tuba thing (whatever formal designation it has) generally cannot.
User avatar
tubadood5150
bugler
bugler
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:20 pm
Location: ohio

Re: Sousaphone vs. Contra

Post by tubadood5150 »

Uncle Buck wrote:
For the model we used, the bracing on the leadpipe also sucked - the leadpipe and mouthpiece just moved around and floated constantly. Plus, tip the horn up a little too much, and get a face full of spit.
Did these convertibles happen to be Yamahas? I march one for my school and I hate it. The Dynasty 5/4 contras I march in Corps with are 1305971023895701897350 times better. And I agree with the sousaphone being more of a college band thing. Especially in stands. Trying to put a contra up onto your shoulder with people packed behind you isn't very fun. AND you can sit down with a sousaphone...but in terms of quality of sound, I like the contras better. Not convertible garbage. Just my $.02
Post Reply