Hams?

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Rick Denney
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Re: Hams?

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the elephant wrote:I stand to inherit this stuff one day. If I can get it working, would such old equipment be compatible with modern standards? I hear that newbies no longer have to do morse. Is this correct? What would a license cost? How much time is involved in classes and how much is individual? I want to become a ham operator just because of this old gear! This set looks like something right out of some movie, mostly being Dad's father's gear from around WWII.
Much of the old stuff is AM, while most voice communications are done with SSB (single-sideband with a suppressed carrier--AM is double-sideband with a full-power carrier and takes up more bandwidth but sounds better). There are still portions of the phone (i.e., voice) bandlets that are haunted by AM operators. Nothing is truly unusable, unless you go back a few decades further to spark-gap transmitters.

But making that old stuff work and work well is a huge technical challenge. It would be better to sell it to someone who is into restoring and used those "boat anchors" and get something newer (though not necessarily new).

Radio stuff is cheaper now than it used to be, even in actual dollars. The radio I now use was $2300 new in 1991, and a radio of its quality (outstanding) and features (more limited, especially regarding computer interfacing) would cost no more now, and may cost a bit less. Used, I paid about a third of that. There are more ultra-high-end models on the market now, with unprecedented prices, but they provide capabilities and features beyond anything that was available decades ago, particularly with digital processing. You can also get quite usable, good-quality HF radios for as little as $300-$400. Attach it to a dipole strung up in the trees (under $50) with coaxial cable (under $100) and an antenna matching tuner (so you can use that antenna on all bands, and low-power models are under $100 used) and you have enough capability to work at least your half of the world. I made a contact with Slovenia within five minutes of hooking my radio up the first time. I spent no more than $600 to get that HF first radio on the air. But you can spend as much as you want up to many tens of thousands of dollars. The guy on the other end might not be able to tell the difference on any given day.

Amateur radio now uses testing programs administered by other hams, not directly by the FCC. The FCC has designated certain clubs as "volunteer examiner coordinators", who work with hams who serve as "volunteer examiners" to administer the tests. The VEC's can charge for administering a test, but it's nominal and not all VEC's charge. I took my tests with the Laurel VEC (part of the Laurel Amateur Radio Club, in Laurel, MD) and they were free. Nobody charges more than a few bucks. The largest of the VEC's is the American Radio Relay League. Most clubs in the U.S. are affiliated with ARRL, so their VE's are everywhere.

Morse code is no longer required at any level, and that has sparked some nasty debates among radio amateurs. But it's a fact.

There are three tested grades of radio amateurs: Technician, General, and Extra. The Tech license provides permission in the VHF and UHF bands, plus a few limited privileges in the 10-meter band and in other bands using Morse code. If you want to use a 2-meter radio and chat on the local repeater, the Tech license is all you need.

The tests are drawn from pools of questions, with the pools including hundreds of questions. The pools are public, but the mix of questions that might be drawn from the pools for any given exam are not. The questions are drawn randomly, but in groups to make sure all important subject areas are covered. The Tech and General tests have 35 questions each, and the Extra test has 50 questions. A passing score is 70%.

The Tech test is not difficult, and includes basic rules and a very simple understanding of electricity, mostly at the DC level.

But if you want to talk around the world, you'll want at least the General license. That test includes a lot more questions concerning rules of usage, particularly in the HF band, and the technical questions cover electricity in the frequency domain. You'll have to memorize the band boundaries, and you'll have to know the purpose of a mixer, a product detector, an amplifier, and so on. Antenna theory will not be all that specific.

The Extra test includes much more depth of electrical theory, including interpreting schematics and circuits, understanding components, and understanding electrical resonance in circuits and antenna systems. Technically, the Extra test is much harder than the General test if you have no background in electronics, though an understanding of the science of acoustics helps a lot. The Extra test doesn't test rules, though, to any great extent, because having the Extra license only adds privileges on a few slivers of bands. (It also lets you get cooler call signs.)

Local clubs often have classes for people wanting to study up for one of the tests. Local clubs can also hook you into a market for stuff you don't want to use yourself, and for stuff you do.

The fun for me is building the stations as much as operating them. Each new project requires a new body of knowledge, and that's what I particularly enjoy. I also get a thrill when the station I've assembled works. Unlike the Internet or a telephone, when I talk with that guy in Slovenia, it was he and his radio and antenna, and me and mine. All we needed in between was an appropriately reflective ionosphere. I get weary of the infrastructure we are asked to rent without understanding, and this takes me to a new level of self-sufficiency that appeals to me.

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Re: Hams?

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SplatterTone wrote:The Moonraker was a well known CB beam antenna.
He may have been talking about moon-bounce, or earth-moon-earth propagation. That's really at the pinnacle of amateur radio accomplishment.

Then again, maybe not.

Remember, though, that the 11-meter band used to be in the amateur radio service, and required a license just like the other bands. It was during the 60's that it became the citizen's-band service, and in the 70's when the FCC stopped requiring a license. In those days, anyone who operated by name only was an unlicensed user. 11-meter stuff from back when it was in the amateur service is no longer usable unless it is modified to run in the 10 or 12-meter amateur bands. CB requires FCC "type-accepted" equipment, despite the illegal (and often silly) stuff sold in truckstops.

CB has always been limited to 5 watts effective radiated power (that means no gain antennas are allowed for 5-watt transmitters), and has always been limited to ground-wave propagation. Gain antennas, linear amplifiers, and skip propagation have always been illegal in the citizen's band radio service.

Rick "wondering why a CB antenna recently seen at a Flying J needs to be rated for 15 kilowatts" Denney
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Re: Hams?

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Rick Denney wrote:CB has always been limited to 5 watts effective radiated power (that means no gain antennas are allowed for 5-watt transmitters), and has always been limited to ground-wave propagation. Gain antennas, linear amplifiers, and skip propagation have always been illegal in the citizen's band radio service.
The power limit was 5 watts input to the final tank circuit; thus, the approximate 4 watts output. Gain antennas and beams were entirely legal. The 1/2 wave and 5/8 wave ground plane were the most common, and these are gain antennas. It was rare to come across somebody using only a 1/4 ground plane (or dipole) which would be a unity gain antenna. Also fairly popular was the PDL2 quad - a two element quad beam; and a three element switchable, directional vertical with the elements arranged as vertices on a triangle. A switch at the operator console changed the phasing of the elements to produce an approximate equivalent of a two-element beam antenna in one of three directions. There was a maximum height limitation. I think it was 60 feet to the top of the antenna, but don't quote me on that.

As for the moon bounce antenna: These are rarely an "antenna", but arrays of antennas backed up with some hefty power; often pushing well over a million watts ERP (some more than 2 million watts ERP). I peruse the ham merchandise catalogs regularly and have never seen an antenna identified specifically for moon bounce. I would be curious to know (and a little sceptical) if there is, in fact, anyone doing regular moon bounce on a single beam antenna unless that single antenna were a fairly sizable parabolic dish.
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Re: Hams?

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A question for anyone with ham experience...

First rig, budget far from unlimited.

Does it make sense to get a 2m/440kHz dual band radio, 100w amp and antenna, to have the best benefits of both a mobile and a HT? It makes sense to me, and I'm not at all concerned by the required "fuss" of cable and power. The local equipment dealer told me to get real, to not go after my last radio first -- I guess he meant it was more complicated than it needed to be -- and just get a mobile.

I dunno. Am I going overboard with the idea??

73
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Re: Hams?

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eupher61 wrote:A question for anyone with ham experience...
Does it make sense to get a 2m/440kHz dual band radio, 100w amp and antenna, to have the best benefits of both a mobile and a HT? It makes sense to me, and I'm not at all concerned by the required "fuss" of cable and power. The local equipment dealer told me to get real, to not go after my last radio first -- I guess he meant it was more complicated than it needed to be -- and just get a mobile.73
You're going to get as many opinions on this as there are hams. What I'll say is that what each us think about rigs evolves with time and experience. And by that I mean that what works for each of us over the years tends to change with our interests. When you're interested in having a handheld to carry around at hamfests and club meetings, and you don't have an unlimited budget to buy everything, then what you are proposing makes perfect sense.

When I first got licensed as a technician back in 1988 I bought a 2M handheld Heath right away. Pretty soon after that I added an external power supply, microphone and brick power amp so I could use it in the house as a base. That was fine for a couple of months until I decided that disconnecting everthing and reconnecting it every time I wanted to take it out of the house was a royal pain.

So, I bought a 2M mobile and a mag mount 5/8 wave antenna and all was good. Right up to the point that the brick power amp in the house gave up the ghost. So I bought a second mobile 2M rig to use in the house and all was good again.

Then I decided that I just had to have 440 capability. So I bought another handheld. See the emerging pattern?

Next I bought a 10M mobile rig. Oh, I forgot to mention that I bought a used Tempo One tube hf rig for the house at the ham fest the day I passed my original license test so I could join Navy Marine Corps MARS.

And you thought tuba players just bought lots of tubas?

By 1990 I'd upgraded to General class and rewarded myself with a Heath SB1400 solid state hf rig. I'd also pretty much quit using the hand helds (HT's). A year later I upgraded to Advanced.

Meanwhile I replaced the mobiles with dual band Alincos. Big mistake. Both Alincos failed within a year with memory problems. So I replaced them with 2M Radio Shacks. Which still work today.

Around 2000 I upgraded to Extra and rewarded myself with a Kenwood 450SAT hf rig. (Everyone needs rewards.)

I still haven't needed or touched an HT since the 90's. But my daughter just had our second grandchild last month and I celebrated our new granddaughter's birth, since she's in Atlanta, by stopping off at HRO and buying myself a new Yaesu FT8900R quad band mobile. And so it goes.

What all this means is that I've never found the holy grail of radio equipment any more than the holy grail of musical instruments. Don't even know anyone who has. Buy what you want. It will be right for you. For a while. Then you'll buy more :-)

73 de Jim, N4SVZ
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Re: Hams?

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And every bit as expensive.
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Re: Hams?

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SplatterTone wrote:As for the moon bounce antenna: These are rarely an "antenna", but arrays of antennas backed up with some hefty power; often pushing well over a million watts ERP (some more than 2 million watts ERP). I peruse the ham merchandise catalogs regularly and have never seen an antenna identified specifically for moon bounce. I would be curious to know (and a little sceptical) if there is, in fact, anyone doing regular moon bounce on a single beam antenna unless that single antenna were a fairly sizable parabolic dish.
The rules have changed over the years for CB. I knew that 5/8-wave verticals were, of course, allowed, but thought they have gain they are not beams (and thus my terminology was wrong). I'm sure all such were allowed at least when the 11-meter band was a ham band, but I do recall reading that the antennas had been sharply limited as a result of that band being moved to the Citizen's Radio Service.

And, yes, power in those days was always rated as "input" power--input to the finals. No longer, though.

I know of at least two EME arrays being offered for sale in this area, and one of them calls it his moonbounce array. With WSJT, EME antennas can shrink (and have), but you're right that a typical array has eight or ten 20-odd-element yagis in the array, all on monstrous az-alt rotators. Lessee, each one of those antennas has about 28 dB gain, and doubling the antenna number adds about 3 dB if I'm remembering correctly. So, 36-40 dB gain is probably possible. With big hardline and 1500 watts, that could make millions of watts of effective radiated power. Don't stand in front of the antenna. Like I said, that's on the cutting edge of what amateurs might be into.

Rick "who watched a veteran EME operator make meteor-scatter contacts using WSJT last year" Denney
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Re: Hams?

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Rick Denney wrote:but I do recall reading that the antennas had been sharply limited as a result of that band being moved to the Citizen's Radio Service.
11-meter as a ham band goes quite a ways back. The change-over was Sept. 11, 1958 to be exact.

I sold this stuff when I worked at Radio Shack in the 1970's. The antennas -- including a three-element beam -- were clearly sold as Citizens Band equipment. Note that this was not Bubba's Truck Stop, but a nationwide, very visible retailer. A link to the current FCC regs is below. I see no limitation on antenna type. The only change to what I previously posted was that power limitation has been changed from 5-watt input (which I always thought was a little goofy) to 4-watt output carrier, 12-watt PEP.
http://www.reactintl.org/rules-cb.htm

I was an avid participant in CB and was quite familiar with the official rules as well as the popular customs. I even had an official FCC license call sign (KAUK4626) -- which, according to above list of rules is apparently still good. I am old enough and participated in it far enough back that I know what it was like when it was indeed a very civil and enjoyable hobby (if we leave out channels 6 and 19). Every area of town had one or two channels where that area of town hung out. There were channel get-togethers, cook-outs, and softball games. People were reasonably observant of good behavior without being stiff and formal. It was very similar to 2 meter simplex, very informal, multi-participant BS sessions ... back when 2 meter had those.

As an editorial comment, I will note that ham radio experienced its major growth some period of time after CB went through its enormous popular growth. Most of the new hams were previous CB operators. The popularity of CB collapsed because of the incompatibility the elements of a lot people using it, almost all AM transmissions, and a sunspot peak which left the entire band unusable for most of the day. This left no "farm league" to graduate to amateur radio.

ARRL and the politics-that-be tried to compensate by greatly simplifying the license requirements. But, if my local area is representative of the state of ham radio in general, then those simplifying measures haven't worked. What I think might have helped is if the ARRL had worked to come up with a good replacement for CB -- perhaps something like FRS but without the severe equipement limitations. I suspect the good riddance and don't come back attitude towards CB left no pool of people to graduate to amateur radio.
Last edited by SplatterTone on Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hams?

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the elephant wrote:When did the change from 23 channels to 40+ occur?
I don't recall the exact year. As you noted, it was around 1977 give or take a year or two. This, by the way, lead to the demise of Lafeyette which was a pretty big electronics retailer "sort of" in the vein of Radio Shack (but different). Lafeyette had grossly overstocked on 23 channel radios to ride high on the popularity of CB, then got stuck with a whopping big stock it could not sell when 40 channels was approved. Kind of like an auto dealer with a lot full of Chevy Suburbans right about now. Radio Shack wisely started selling out its stock of 23 channels radios at the very first hint of 40 channels on the horizon. There was a period of time when we had very little to sell. We just tantalized the customers with the promise that 40 channels would in fact be a reality.

There was pseudo-gentlemen's agreement (not universally followed -- as is the case with some informal practices on ham bands) that channels 38-40 (if i recall correctly) would be for people using single sideband transmissions.
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Re: Hams?

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HA!! I knowed I detected the distinct aroma of CB that was wafted into the thread. So, is that a picture of the actual radio?
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Re: Hams?

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the elephant wrote:gear from the middle and late 1940s and some from the 1960s.
The 40s stuff, if it is in good, restorable shape is probably worth some cash, quite a bit probably. You don't see much still alive from that far back. The oldest receiver I have, an RME45, is from around 1945. It's not that great of a radio. A lot of drift. Big, heavy bastard.
rme45_2.jpg
Receivers from that time could be ham or general shortwave. If any of it says Collins on it, it's probably worth a chunk. Some of the better Hammarlund and National stuff will bring in a bit of cash. But those guys had some so-so, unremarkable stuff too. Hallicrafters had a little bit of pretty good stuff ... as well its share of unremarkable stuff. Most old receivers and transmitters from that time had unstable frequency control and drifted (changed frequency) quite a bit. Only the best of the best had good frequency stability.

Do you know if any of that stuff is transmitters? An old one I have that somebody needs to take and restore is a Globe King 400. Here's a picture of a 500 which is essentially the same size. Although there are probably some 80-meter AM operators that would love to have something like this, I doubt that in its unrestored state, it is worth much, if anything. Much bigger, heavier bastard. The three chassis in the rack are, from bottom: The power supply; the AM modulator; the Amplifier.
globe_king.jpg
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Re: Hams?

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Now that's a boat anchor :-)
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Re: Hams?

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SplatterTone wrote:
Rick Denney wrote:but I do recall reading that the antennas had been sharply limited as a result of that band being moved to the Citizen's Radio Service.
11-meter as a ham band goes quite a ways back. The change-over was Sept. 11, 1958 to be exact.

I sold this stuff when I worked at Radio Shack in the 1970's. The antennas -- including a three-element beam -- were clearly sold as Citizens Band equipment. Note that this was not Bubba's Truck Stop, but a nationwide, very visible retailer. A link to the current FCC regs is below. I see no limitation on antenna type. The only change to what I previously posted was that power limitation has been changed from 5-watt input (which I always thought was a little goofy) to 4-watt output carrier, 12-watt PEP.
http://www.reactintl.org/rules-cb.htm
12 watts peak envelop power is probably a little less than 4 watts RMS for single sideband with suppressed carrier (which, because the carrier is suppressed, has a zero output carrier). The old power rules for ham radio also specific peak input power in those days (and those days weren't that long ago). My early 80's vintage Kenwood TS-430 HF radio specified 200 watts "peak input power", which is about the same thing as a 100 watts output with some modulation processing on the voice. I usually read about 80 watts on that rig on my true averaging output power meter, and my voice usually drives a higher average than most folks.

You're right that there is no restriction on beam antennas. I even went to the actual Part 95 so I could read the appendices. Gotta be careful about listening to authoritative hams when it comes to the rules for CB--it's not an ubiased crowd.

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_ ... 7cfr95.pdf
I was an avid participant in CB and was quite familiar with the official rules as well as the popular customs. I even had an official FCC license call sign (KAUK4626) -- which, according to above list of rules is apparently still good. I am old enough and participated in it far enough back that I know what it was like when it was indeed a very civil and enjoyable hobby (if we leave out channels 6 and 19). Every area of town had one or two channels where that area of town hung out. There were channel get-togethers, cook-outs, and softball games. People were reasonably observant of good behavior without being stiff and formal. It was very similar to 2 meter simplex, very informal, multi-participant BS sessions ... back when 2 meter had those.
I remember those days as well (and, yes, I think the move from 23 channels to 40 channels happened around 1976). I also participated in CB before it became overrun by truckers and seeming anarchists. In fact, I had an FCC license to operate on 26.620 MHz, just below the CB band, for the Civil Air Patrol, so my radio discipline has some military aspects to it.
As an editorial comment, I will note that ham radio experienced its major growth some period of time after CB went through its enormous popular growth. Most of the new hams were previous CB operators. The popularity of CB collapsed because of the incompatibility the elements of a lot people using it, almost all AM transmissions, and a sunspot peak which left the entire band unusable for most of the day. This left no "farm league" to graduate to amateur radio.
I don't recall the propagation issue. Cycle 21 peaked in about 1981 or so, after I'd moved on from CB in about 1977. Cycle 20 peaked in about 1970, before the boom. For skywave propagation, however, sunspots are a good thing. The maximum usable frequency will be highest at the peak, which will allow propagation on higher and quieter frequencies. Right now, at the bottom of the very beginning of Cycle 24, the 10-meter band is all but worthless, supporting skip propagation only during rare openings, but people will be making DX contacts on 10 meters in about five years.
ARRL and the politics-that-be tried to compensate by greatly simplifying the license requirements. But, if my local area is representative of the state of ham radio in general, then those simplifying measures haven't worked. What I think might have helped is if the ARRL had worked to come up with a good replacement for CB -- perhaps something like FRS but without the severe equipement limitations. I suspect the good riddance and don't come back attitude towards CB left no pool of people to graduate to amateur radio.
We still have over 600,000 licenses hams, though it is true they are not getting any younger. But the real problem seems to me unrelated to CB, despite that it is every ham's favorite insult. The real problem is that people once admired and sought jobs in electronics, and a person without two degrees (or even one) could legitimately be trained to perform electronics repair and even design and build radios. A 14-year-old of 50 years ago would be enamored with radio as the pinnacle of moder technology, and his parents would encourage it as a means of learning a respected and well-paying trade.

Nowadays, the kids with the intellect to pursue a technical career go vastly further than what they would generally learn in amateur radio, and few radio amateurs (unless they are also RF professionals) can learn enough to be relevant as technologists. Amateur radio is the last holdout in the lost art of HF propagation, but professional and military communications have generally gone to higher frequencies, digital modes, and software-driven devices. The gap between what an amateur can do and what professionals do has grown beyond what most folks can bridge, so the motivation for amateur radio has shifted from a relevant step in a worthwhile technological career to a nostalgic repository of lost technologies. The exceptions to this who I know (and I know many) are electronics professionals in their day jobs. I don't see many bank tellers or plumbers on the forefront, for example, of designing DSP algorithms for software-defined radios.

Thus, I don't see CB as a farm club, even back in its glory days. CB was a low-cost and multi-party alternative to the telephone, and a way for men to chat without too much interference from their wives. If you listen to 2 meters, or 75 meters, you'll hear those same guys, now 40 years older, still talking. Two meters is dying because it's no longer much use as an alternative to the telephone (everyone already has that capability in their pockets or clipped to their belts), and only in a few places can you have simplex operation without very complex antennas. Thus, the repeaters become these partly walled-off domains for local rag-chewers. I can drive coast to coast and never hear a soul on 146.520, which is the national simplex calling frequency.

For me, the interest is in establishing the capability without the intervening rented infrastructure. That's as challenging now as it ever was, and no computer can completely replace that RF device and antenna for talking to someone in another part of the world without renting an internet connection or phone line. I was chatting with a work colleague about it, and he asked me why I would consider playing with amateur radio when I have a cell phone in my pocket. I asked him why he rode a bicycle to work when he has a car in the driveway. He said the bike was great exercise. I said, "exactly." Amateur radio is great exercise for the brain on a very technical subject. CB never was, at least not to that extent, and neither is two-meter FM, unless you are the guy building the repeater.

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Re: Hams?

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the elephant wrote:One unit is very clearly marked Hammarlund. I do not know what it does. It has a large (6x6") lighted VU meter or tuning dial in the center on the top half. There are a few things marked Collins as well.
Hammarlund was a well-known brand of receiver in the boat-anchor era. Collins was respected even more. (Collins radios were made in Richardson, Texas, and the Collins factory still exists, though it's not Collins any more and they no longer make amateur stuff.)

Please do not try to plug them in to see if they work if they have been stored for a long time. The capacitors in those old radios need voltage to maintain an oxide layer that acts as part of the dielectric. The old capacitors were wound with wax paper, which has probably dried out, so any breakdown in the electrolytic capacitor will cause arcing, which ruins the capacitor altogether. The guys who know their stuff will take these guys up from zero volts to 110 volts using a Variac, and they may gradually raise the voltage over a day or two in hopes of reforming the capacitors. Also, vacuum tubes might be gassy and a slow warmup will allow their getters to gather up some of the undesired molecules that have leaked in. It takes some expertise to revive gear of this vintage.

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Re: Hams?

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SplatterTone wrote:This, by the way, lead to the demise of Lafeyette which was a pretty big electronics retailer "sort of" in the vein of Radio Shack (but different). Lafeyette had grossly overstocked on 23 channel radios to ride high on the popularity of CB, then got stuck with a whopping big stock it could not sell when 40 channels was approved.
I had a Lafayette 23-channel CB radio with synthesized local oscillators back in the day, in addition to a Regency 12-channel crystal-controlled CB radio. I'm trying to remember who made those Lafayettes--oh, yeah, it was Trio (aka Kenwood), and they were pretty good quality. Kenwood still makes good-quality ham gear. Recently, I found a book titled "Amateur Radio General License Study Guide" in a box of old stuff, bought for me by my father in about 1971, from the Lafayette Associated Radio Store in Houston. Looking through that book reveals just how much has really changed.

ImageImage

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Re: Hams?

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Rick Denney wrote:I don't recall the propagation issue. Cycle 21 peaked in about 1981 or so, after I'd moved on from CB in about 1977. Cycle 20 peaked in about 1970, before the boom. For skywave propagation, however, sunspots are a good thing.
I do recall the issue. Sunspots are a very bad thing when there are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of AM transmissions, the carriers of which combine to form a massive chorus of heterodynes, the result being a constant S10-plus roar. A-L-L D-A-Y L-O-N-G. People gave up. The area-of-town groups and relationships evaporated.
But the real problem seems to me unrelated to CB, despite that it is every ham's favorite insult. The real problem is that people once admired and sought jobs in electronics ... Nowadays, the kids with the intellect to pursue a technical career go vastly further than what they would generally learn in amateur radio,
Your are attributing to much glamor to this. Ham radio is and always was a bastion of gadget lovers. Oh sure, there are the few egghead technorati in there, but they are a small minority. Consider the collection of which Wade speaks. Do you think that pile of radios was collected by an insatiable desire for technology? Heck no. It's gadgets. Always was gadgets. Cool stuff to play with. "The only difference between men and boys is the size and price of their toys." CB offered a very simple way to start dabbling in radio toys as opposed some other kind of toys. Having gotten my ham license in 1988 during the big growth period for ham radio, and having attended the club meetings while noting that the vast majority of new hams I met were previous CB operators, my empirical observation is that CB is where the interest in radio gadgeteering started for most because all you had to do was walk into a store and buy a cheap radio and antenna and start yakking.

I will acknowledge that the computer and video game world offer up some very attractive toys. But I have to wonder if that is entertainment rather than gadgeteering.
Amateur radio is the last holdout in the lost art of HF propagation,
What art? I never had anything more sophisticated that a 40-meter inverted vee and a tuner. You tune around listening for a CQ, or you send your own CQ. Either the waves are bouncing your way, or they aren't. Maybe I'm just hard to impress. I have Sardine Sender, 80-meter 3/4 watt cw transmitter I made from one of the handbooks (don't remember which one). Yeah, I made a couple of contacts with it. No art there. The band happened to be quiet enough, and somebody had a good enough receiver to pick up the signal.
Two meters is dying because it's no longer much use as an alternative to the telephone (everyone already has that capability in their pockets or clipped to their belts),
... or few new people are coming in.
and only in a few places can you have simplex operation without very complex antennas.
Any decent vertical on a pole above the roof will easily get you a 30 mile radius to anyone else with a decent vertical on a pole above their roof. I used to pick up fox hunt HT's from 8 miles away (at least) while standing on the ground while holding and waving around a 3-element Cushcraft beam.
For me, the interest is in establishing the capability without the intervening rented infrastructure. That's as challenging now as it ever was,
For you maybe. For most it's the playing around with radios. Back in the 20 wpm Extra Class days, only a small percentage of hams went that far. The majority did the 13 wpm to satisfy the carrot and stick requirement to get on HF phone, after which, they gladly packed up the morse key. Phooey on the challenge. 13 wpm wasn't all that tough; 20 wpm was a challenge (more accurately: a bitch). I did Novice, Tech and 13 wpm in my first testing session. General and Advanced the next month. Then it was eight months of a lot of practice, every day, to get to 20 wpm. I did the challenge along with the gadget stuff. But very few others did or wanted to. That's why the challenge was eliminated. Don't take my word for it, take that of the ARRL: People aren't looking for a challenge, so make it easy to get a license.

Gadgets. Playing with cool toys. Start with CB, then, if you're still interested, move up. Except CB is essentially dead.
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lgb&dtuba
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Re: Hams?

Post by lgb&dtuba »

SplatterTone wrote: For you maybe. For most it's the playing around with radios. Back in the 20 wpm Extra Class days, only a small percentage of hams went that far. The majority did the 13 wpm to satisfy the carrot and stick requirement to get on HF phone, after which, they gladly packed up the morse key. Phooey on the challenge. 13 wpm wasn't all that tough; 20 wpm was a challenge (more accurately: a bitch). I did Novice, Tech and 13 wpm in my first testing session. General and Advanced the next month. Then it was eight months of a lot of practice, every day, to get to 20 wpm. I did the challenge along with the gadget stuff. But very few others did or wanted to. That's why the challenge was eliminated. Don't take my word for it, take that of the ARRL: People aren't looking for a challenge, so make it easy to get a license.

Gadgets. Playing with cool toys. Start with CB, then, if you're still interested, move up. Except CB is essentially dead.
I think age has something to do with it, in the sense that if you are old enough the options available to you when you were young were quite different.

When I was in high school (in the early 60's) there were no home computers, let alone computer games. If you were a techno-geek, then electronics was where it was at. The space program was in full swing and it hadn't been that long since the first satellite had been launched. Becoming an electronics tech or engineer was the glamor career. At the same time money wasn't all that available for a high school kid. If you were lucky around here you could get an after school job bagging groceries. Or work tobacco in the summer. (I bagged.)

That little bit of money went into buying my first electronics kit - a Knight Kit 3 transistor cb walkie talkie. Cost me all of $9.99 as I recall. That's about $100 in today's money. That got me and a buddy on the air. Why cb? First, it was what we could afford. Second, in those days the amateur tests were conducted by the FCC in regional offices. I would have had to go to Norfolk, Va. to test for Novice. No way was my Dad going to drive me 150 miles away for something a frivolous as a ham license. The walkie talkies had 100 milliwatt transmitters and we didn't need to even get real cb licenses for them. So that and tearing down junked radios donated to me from the local tv-radio repair shop to build up a supply of parts for projects constituted the hobby for me. Remember radio/tv repair shops? If you lived in a small town, that was where the town's uber geek worked. And teenaged geeks hung out.

As for cb itself, in those days cb'ers actually had licenses, used their calls and pretty much followed the same on air procedures as hams. Lower power was about the only real difference. (OK, cb was only one band. Hams had more.) So it could really be a stepping stone.

CB fed my young techno-geek urges and sufficed until I went into the Navy and got myself trained for real in electronics. When I got out of the Navy in 1969 I worked for a while repairing business band two way radios (anyone remember Aerotron?). Electronics was already evolving beyond the old repair guy paradigm and so I got interested in and went back to school to become a computer programmer. A decision that has proved much more lucrative than if I had tried to stay in electronics repair. While I was in electronics I found that the last thing I wanted to do when I got off work was more electronics.

It was 1988 when I became interested in ham radio again, discovered that you no longer had to go to Norfolk to test, and got licensed. My path through ham radio pretty much mirrors Splat's except I spread it out over a couple of years and I was in the majority who never went past 13wpm and Advanced until the code requirement went away. The day I passed the 13 wpm test was pretty much the last time I touched a key. For me it's always been about the gadgets.

The point buried in there is that CB really was a stepping stone to ham radio once upon a time. I'm not so sure it is now. It doesn't take much to jump straight into a technician license today and modern 2m mobiles don't cost significantly more than a decent cb used to. As far as what you hear on cb today, well let's just say that we can only hope that it's not a stepping stone into ham radio.

73 de N4SVZ
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Re: Hams?

Post by tubatooter1940 »

I have a VHF radio in my sailboat. I was so grateful when they repealed the license law for VHF. Now I am free to babble away like the C.B.'ers used to but for one thing. Almost no one is listening except the Coast Guard and a few marinas.
Sailors these days use cell phones when near the coast. So do I.
I keep a phone directory aboard my boat. Handy!
We pronounce it Guf Coast
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Re: Hams?

Post by Rick Denney »

SplatterTone wrote:Your are attributing to much glamor to this.
Probably. That's the thing about nostalgia.

But Jim's description fits my own history pretty well, though I'm a bit younger and for me CB was descending into its own hell too quickly for my interest in it to last very long.

I had other interests that drew me away from the radio stuff. Yes, I enjoyed (and enjoy) the gadgets, though the underlying knowledge required to do something with them interests me just as much as the toy aspect. It's certainly more than just chatting with people--I get plenty of that without radio.

I have a work colleague with whom I have traveled extensively. He is a ham, and he kept me up-to-date on his contesting activities. That appealed to me, and the memories of hanging around one of my oldest and closest friends, who is a broadcast radio engineer, had given me some enjoyable memories of phasing AM station antenna arrays and the like. You could say that I've always had a ham streak, but never really the time to pursue it. Frankly, it was the removal of the code requirement that finally pushed me over the edge. Yes, that has resulted in lots of Extra-class operators, but I can't see any real harm from that. The old guys resent that their hard efforts are undermined, and they think the young'uns don't respect them, if you believe what you read on QRZ. I do get tired of the "walked 20 miles in the snow, uphill both ways" stories. And some of us who are new are not unaware of many of the traditions, we just never got the license for whatever reason. I've certainly had to bite my tongue to keep from challenging the comments of sold of the more experienced hams, who apparently forgot some important truths about how RF works. For example, lots of people who passed code tests still confuse low reactance in an antenna system with high radiation resistance.

There is an art to HF propagation, and it's more than just seeing if someone is out there on the lobe of gain that a given dipole might have. I was able to hear Scarborough Reef during the dxpedition last year, but could not make contact. Whatever I knew then wasn't enough, either in terms of station design or operating strategy. I know guys who have beams at 70 feet and also at 40 feet, so that the lower beams can bring in contacts from a shorter skip owing to their higher take-off angle, or take advantage of different ionosphere layer propagations at different times of the day. If that's not subtle, then I don't know what is.

Rick "learning Morse at 20 wpm, but sporadically" Denney
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Re: Hams?

Post by eupher61 »

20wpm, eh? Impressive...

I just bought an AARL CD set "Your Introduction to Morse Code", which uses the Farnsworth technique (letters at 15wpm, spaced to 5 wpm). Apparently the VECs have agreed to use 13-15 wpm character speeds, spaced to 5 wpm, for the 5 word test.

I like it!! I've tried several times through the years, trying to teach myself code. I once had an oscillator, built it from a kit, but I had no system for learning anything. Just going A B C D etc sure didn't work.

$14.95 for this 2 disc set...well worth it!
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