11 pieces for orchestra with low Db = steak dinner

[sloan]

They're "enough" to have "something to mash" that will "work".

bloke "no engineer"

I'm sure. With enough Tennessee mash, everything sounds good.

[Tom Holtz]

Orchestra works with low Db in the part ---> ---> ---> picture of Merle Haggard.

You have reached the end of the Internet. Turn around and go back or unplug your computer. Have a nice day.

[JB]

Orchestra works with low Db in the part ---> ---> ---> picture of Merle Haggard.

You have reached the end of the Internet. Turn around and go back or unplug your computer. Have a nice day.

http://n.ethz.ch/~stadleja/

[Tom Holtz]

http://n.ethz.ch/~stadleja/

Yep, that's the one. I wanted to follow up, but I failed to find a clip of Gene Rayburn on the Match Game saying, "Thank you for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts backstage." I tried.

[JB]

...Gene Rayburn on the Match Game saying, "Thank you for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts backstage."

[Steve Marcus]

Please correct this if it is not accurate:

I recall playing the low DDb in Respighi's Church Windows and in Lowell Lieberman's Symphony No. 2. The latter piece was recorded by the Dallas Symphony on RCA Red Seal, so it breaks out of the "obscure" category (err...perhaps barely)...

[JB]

That "Gene Rayburn" guy looks exactly like someone named "Gene Rubessa".

Yeah, but "Rayburn" was a little younger than "Rubessa."


He (apparently) chose the stagename 'Rayburn' by sticking his finger in a phonebook.

"After his father died at a very young age, his mother moved to Chicago and married Milan Rubessa, and Gene adopted his stepfather's name. As Gene Rubessa, he acted in high school plays and hoped to follow an acting career."

[eupher61]

I thought GR was in "State Fair" or "& Brides" or one of those movie musicals, too. It doesn't show on his imbd page, thought.

If my career in something somewhat related to music would be as successful as his something-somewhat-related-to-acting career was, I'd be thrilled!

[KevinMadden]

I can think of two pieces with the infamous Db1, Adams, "Short Ride in a fast Machine" also, Corigliano, "Circus Maximus" (obscure? maybe, but certainly NOT widely played)

as for playing the low Db, play the D above or C below and use these:



or I'll pull out the eefer and play it as a 1st valve pedal
(i've got four valves, about as much experience as James, maybe more, have yet to need five, if I actually can't get by without #5, I'll go and buy a new horn)

[tubadude08]

I do believe that William Walton's Symphony No.1 has a low Db as well as a CC# it may only have one of them, but i believe it has both.

[Nick Pierce]

For the purposes of this contest, must the note be actually notated as a Db in that register, or does it still count if it is a C#?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

For the purposes of this contest, must the note be actually notated as a Db in that register, or does it still count if it is a C#?

There is no contest. The offer (wager) was made and rejected. The conversation that has come after, though, has been quite enlightening. Not a terrible thing, I think.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

a string player would do a quarter tone if both notes (C# - Db)followed each other

I'd really like to know where this comes from, as I see it frequently in print and hear it spoken as well.

As a string bass player, I would never have done this. Upper voices may have to change their pitch slightly according to chord function, but not 50 cents.

And, as an additional point of discussion, what's special about string players and their intonation? If they should do this, why wouldn't, say, a flute player or a cornet player?

EDIT: Ok, here's a hint...Google "Leopold Mozart" and "comma"

[windshieldbug]

If one uses a temperament other than equal, the notes are NOT the same. Even without strings.

Use your ears, not your eyes.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Its called a quarter tone, but really is not 50 cents difference.

I don't understand. It's called a quarter tone, but it's not really a quarter tone?

They will change the tuning slightly between notes as they do serve a different chord function.

C# and Db (or any other enharmonic pitches), in a vacuum, don't serve different functions at all. Here's an example:

Beethoven, String Quartet Op. 59, No. 2 in e minor. Allegro, mm. 71-74.

In the cello part, do the Eb in the first bar and the D# in the third serve a different chord function? How about the Gb and F# in the viola parts in the same bars? Should they be played differently? I would argue that they shouldn't, and wouldn't be by modern professional players. How does the poor second violinist, who has Bb in both the Eb minor chord and D# minor chord, know to play his/her note differently?

String bass, assume your the root of the chord

Chord function should never be assumed, but heard. String bass parts (or tuba parts) don't always stay on the roots of chords. But I agree with what I think you meant here. By my thinking, the lowest voice should generally always play in the "center of the tuner" and allow the higher parts to adjust by interval above the bass accordingly. When the bass voice is on the third of a major chord, Instead of lowering that note play it perfectly in tune and allow the minor sixth above (the root) to be raised by those players. Some conductors and "rehearsal specialists" disagree, and would tell you, the tuba player, to lower your chord voice so the root can be played perfectly in tune.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

If one uses a temperament other than equal, the notes are NOT the same. Even without strings.

Use your ears, not your eyes.

Temperament, schemperament. Here's an example from Kopprasch #51:

Do you play the two arpeggios any differently? I sure don't...they're the same notes to me.

[windshieldbug]

If one uses a temperament other than equal, the notes are NOT the same. Even without strings.

Use your ears, not your eyes.

Temperament, schemperament. Here's an example from Kopprasch #51:

Do you play the two arpeggios any differently? I sure don't...they're the same notes to me.

Therefore, you ARE using equal teperament, and every chord is equally out of tune with every other.

The adjustments made to notes in a chord HAVE VALUE only when you play with someone else, not by yourself.

What if a Violin is on an upbow on a Eb for example, and the chord changes to a D#FXA# chord. The D# and Eb are the same note in a vacume, but the tunings are different in the chord

Follow?

It's not that people don't understand, they understand MUCH TOO WELL.

For a chord in an equal temperament tuning, you only need to raise a minor third by 2 cents, NOT 50, and lower a major third by 14, again, NOT 50.

What we're trying to tell you is "Use your ears, NOT your eyes".

[Todd S. Malicoate]

In my adv theory class this was a term I learned, quarter tone.

Now you know exactly what a quarter tone is...half of a half-step...precisely 50 cents.

It probably applies more to 20th century music, but we were informed that strings change tuning.

You mean you were informed that strings always change tuning with enharmonic respelling? You were poorly informed. It has nothing to do with 20th century music, and has everything to do with the context of the enharmonic respelling, not the spelling itself.

In A CEbG chord, you raise the Eb because the minor 3rd is flat correct.

Yes, absolutely.

What if a Violin is on an upbow on a Eb for example, and the chord changes to a D#FXA# chord. The D# and Eb are the same note in a vacume, but the tunings are different in the chord

Yes, if the violin part changed from an Eb in a c minor chord to a D# in a D# major chord, they would have to lower the pitch on the second note a bit. But not because the note was respelled D#. They would still have to lower the pitch if they stayed on Eb but the chord changed in the same manner. Function, not note name.

Look at the Kopprasch example I posted earlier. Would you play the f minor arpeggio higher in pitch than the e# minor arpeggio? If so, why? Is Ab just "supposed" to be higher in pitch than G#?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Temperament, schemperament. Here's an example from Kopprasch #51:

Do you play the two arpeggios any differently? I sure don't...they're the same notes to me.

Therefore, you ARE using equal teperament, and every chord is equally out of tune with every other.

The adjustments made to notes in a chord HAVE VALUE only when you play with someone else, not by yourself.

I would slightly raise the Cs (or B#s) and also slightly raise the Abs (or G#s), producing a more in-tune sounding minor chord. I would take the same approach in a Bach unaccompanied sonata or similar work. I would also mention multiphonics as another example when intonation adjustments have value even though you are playing alone. Isn't this where a player diverges from equal temperament? By my understanding, a piano is restricted to equal temperament since it can't adjust pitches up and down for interval tuning.

I'm just saying I wouldn't play the second (enharmonically-respelled) arpeggio any differently from the first simply because it's notated differently. I apologize if my terminology differs from yours, but I would be interested to learn something from your take on the matter.

[windshieldbug]

I'm just saying I wouldn't play the second (enharmonically-respelled) arpeggio any differently from the first simply because it's notated differently.

Todd, I might or might not do the same, but if I were performing this for anyone, I would let my ears guide me in both context and interpretation.

However, one plays both studies and etudes with a different outcome in mind than just over-all performance, as you well know.

Playing with a professional group, one very quickly learns the application of what was once theoretical in music school, and that is what I think we're all trying to tell James. Advanced Theory isn't the answer, it's only THE BEGINNING. And that's why you take it early in college, not high atop some mountain from a zen guru.