Composers writing for Bass tuba vs. Contrabass Tuba

[pierso20]

No insult to the O.P. or most everybody on this board, but up until we all started playing the bass tuba in the style of roger Bobo, the two were interchangeable.
I for one HATE Roger’s model as I think His tone was that of a giant euphonium most of the time. I think the reason tubists and tubaists (like me) use such a sound is that it is much better for fast articulations - it just sounds clearer at high speed and high notes are unarguably much prettier!
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

I assure you, I do not play the bass tuba like Mr. Bobo. I'm not nearly as good technically, nor does my sound replicate his. And Yes, bass tuba's and contrabass's are "interchangeable"...any decent player can play whatever part on whatever horn. In light of this, I often work on the same etude with contrabass AND bass tuba to make sure that notes/range aren't becoming biased in my playing on one particular horn. HOWEVER, really, It's about what sounds best on the part when it comes to performance. That's all I gotta say.

[Allen]

...
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

The soloist, Leonhard Paul, plays bass trumpet when he isn't playing trombone. The instrument he played in the video doesn't look like his usual bass trumpet; it looks more like a bass flugelhorn.

At any rate, he's a stunningly great musician!

Allen

[imperialbari]

...
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

The soloist, Leonhard Paul, plays bass trumpet when he isn't playing trombone. The instrument he played in the video doesn't look like his usual bass trumpet; it looks more like a bass flugelhorn.

At any rate, he's a stunningly great musician!

Allen

All of the Mnozil players are extraordinary in technical as well as (and more importantly) in musical aspects. Some add the touch of insanity, which makes their performances so catching. The bass trumpet player is one of these. The sound is all his own, emphasizing the not too obvious Tenorhorn aspects of the bass trumpet, which he makes sound the same as the bass flugelhorn. This video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWAiWgDsWlg

takes up a highly emotional human situation employing the music of a very well known German soldiers’ song (the first and last theme, the middle one is unknown to me). Even the gait is the one used at southern German funerals. And despite the topic this is a display of brass gymnastics demanding quite a vivid shape.

On the original topic I have no personal experiences, as I only have played trombone and horn in orchestras, but as a listener I tend to be in agreement with Jay Bertolet, even if his choice of Eb over F isn’t exactly historical for the core German repertory as isn’t the widespread usage of the CC nowadays. But then there is another aspect of historicity, which tends to disappear: local orchestral sound and performance tradition.

Within my time there has been one Danish orchestral tubist, who for his whole career played nothing but the 15” B&H Imperial Eb tuba. No change to the 19” bell, even if it was available for the last decades of his career, and even if he went through 3 samples of the said model.

In one field the choice of bass versus contrabass is all at the player’s discretion: the brass quintet. There are high profile ensembles like the Canadian Brass, but the most beautiful recording of tuba in a quintet I ever heard involves a member of TubeNet: Jobey. Not as a soloist, but as an ensemble player. The unification of sound between the horn, trombone, and tuba in Triton Brass was amazing, while Jobey played the B&S F-tuba that sadly was damaged during a trip to a French competition. Jobey’s later CC recordings are very good, but I never will forget that magic ensemble sound of his old F.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[eupher61]

Interchangeable? I'd certainly argue that, and I play almost nothing BUT F.

The Perantucci F tuba modifications have totally changed the concept of F tuba, esp for non-German tradition players. They wanted to get away from the German sound of the smaller F, intentionally. I don't have specs at hand, but the pre-Perantucci F tubas (I'm not sure, but I'd bet they are still being made by B&S) were slightly smaller bore and more cylindrical. Smaller leadpipe too. Totally different sound.

Comparing THAT F tuba to a Kaiser Alex or 190 or Rudy F or (insert your favorite BAGST*) is laughable. Even comparing the sound of any 4/4 or bigger CC or BBb to a Perantucci-influenced F is laughable.

Believe me, I know F tuba. And I know I don't sound like a contrabass unless I have to. I don't want to most of the time, but I can certainly do it. Almost. Sorta. If the listener is slightly hearing impaired.

*Big *** German Style Tuba

[pierso20]

Brooke, I guess you missed My point, they can SOUND so nearly alike, that nobody other then a low brass man is going to know the difference. So my guess is that if you hear a lot of difference, then you probabaly do sound a bit like Bobo.
Did you check out the vidio. It's my new favorite from the Mnozil Brass.
OOps! here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HYSVKUS6As" target="_blank" target="_blank

I still don't quite agree. I promise that if I blindfold my VERY non-musical girlfriend and play both horns she could easily tell. ( NO cracks about the blindfold...haha).

Anyway, Just because you have a different sound concept for bass vs. contrabass doesn't mean you get a Euph sound on your bass. My bass playing sounds very much like a tuba but sounds very different than my big horn.

Now...if I was comparing a Yamaha Piston F, like the 8** (can't remember the exact number at the moment..brain fart) to smaller 4/4 C...then maybe they'd sound alike.

Just my opinion though.

[J.c. Sherman]

No insult to the O.P. or most everybody on this board, but up until we all started playing the bass tuba in the style of roger Bobo, the two were interchangeable.
I for one HATE Roger’s model as I think His tone was that of a giant euphonium most of the time. I think the reason tubists and tubaists (like me) use such a sound is that it is much better for fast articulations - it just sounds clearer at high speed and high notes are unarguably much prettier!
That said, listen to this video, the guy really sounds like a generic tuba and this piece is so beautiful !
PS. Does anybody know the name of the horn the soloist is playing on?

I am certain that there's not a single word here I agree with.

I believe in playing, selecting, and performing on Euphonium, Bass, and Contrabass Tubas differently, fully, and to their strengths, even if their ranges are identical. Yes... identical. Certainly each has its strength in one range or another, nimbless, endurance, whatever. But a Bass tuba is and should be a different instrument from the Contra - as different as it is from Euphonium. Alto trombone, Eb trumpet, other families of instruments know and recognize the timbre differences within their families; it is only some tubists that fight to make them the same, for reasons I cannot even begin to understand, save not allowing themselves to entertain the idea of an F tuba as a complete instrument in its own right, and not a modified CC tuba, or supplement to same. Let a bass tuba BE a bass tuba, and enjoy it as such, and you, your section, and your ensemble WILL notice a difference. If you don't like the difference... well, some of us do, and will continue to ask composers to write for it specifically as such

Bobo might be a better tubist than many of us here... and more successful. Whatever complaints one may have with him, you can't disown his success as such. Think about that before degrading his tone.

J.c.S.

[Rick Denney]

The Perantucci F tuba modifications have totally changed the concept of F tuba, esp for non-German tradition players. They wanted to get away from the German sound of the smaller F, intentionally. I don't have specs at hand, but the pre-Perantucci F tubas (I'm not sure, but I'd bet they are still being made by B&S) were slightly smaller bore and more cylindrical. Smaller leadpipe too. Totally different sound.

The specs are not as different as you think. My pre-PT Symphonie has exactly the same outer branches as a PT-10. The only difference between mine and a PT-10 is the bore of the first and fifth valves. It's .690 or something like that on the Symphonie, and the same as the second valve on the PT models. The leadpipes may be different, and the early PT's had interchangeable leadpipes, while mine doesn't, but if it's smaller it's not a glow-in-the-dark difference. The pre-PT Symphonie may be identical to the PT-8 in shape and taper design. On the whole, I don't think the larger bore on the first and fifth is an improvement, and it does not increase the size of the sound or the projection. In fact, it might undermine the projection a bit, and I think that the tone becomes a bit more generic. I think they did it to make the low C better, but it's not bad on mine (in comparison with older rotary F's).

One other difference is that the PT models lengthened the fifth valve slide to make it a true flat whole step. On the Symphonie it's a play whole step, requiring a very different strategy. I'll give the point to Parantucci for that one.

The leadpipe may also be different. And mine differs from PT models in some small mechanical ways: The fifth valve operates on a left-thumb trigger, and it has clock springs.

Rick "thinking calipers are necessary to note the differences" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Let a bass tuba BE a bass tuba, and enjoy it as such

Absolutely gosh-darn right. I had played F tuba for many years when I realized how important this is. When I bought the B&S, one of the things that had attracted me to it was the fat, German, F-tuba sound. It just had some zip in it that I was not hearing from the other offerings (including a PT-10, a Willson 3200R, a Miraphone 181, a prototype Miraphone 281, a M-W 182, and a Yamaha 621). The zip I was looking for was in good evidence on Hans Nickel's CD, Cantuballada, which I was listening to a lot at the time. He played a Hirsbrunner F, but he clearly did not want a contrabass sound out of it, even with that large F.

With that sound in my head, the mouthpiece I selected for the B&S was an MF-4, which is a true F mouthpiece. That was a revelation, and when I compared it that night to my Yamaha 621 (with the contrabassish mouthpiece I was using in it at the time), I realized how much focus, color, and clarity I was giving up trying to make the 621 feel and sound like a contrabass. I'd been playing that 621 for something like 15 years when that realization came to me, including a lot of time in a tuba quartet where I was a middle voice. I now use the MF-4 in the 621 and let it be the F tuba that it wants to be.

I've heard euphonium players who sounded like they were playing an F tuba. Frankly, I think that's their problem, not mine. The F tuba was there first.

But that doesn't mean I'm a stickler for using one or the other instrument in any given case. Those who insist on using C for everything seem as narrow to me as those who are F-tuba purists. I use the instrument that puts the product out front that supports the ensemble to the best of my ability. Sometimes that means choosing one instrument because it increases the security in the required range, and sometimes it's because of the sound.

Rick "who can only dream of producing the Bobo Power Sound" Denney

[Wyvern]

I agree that bass and contrabass tubas should have their own distinct sound. I approach my Neptune and Melton Eb quite differently and believe I get very different tones from each. However the separation of tubas into these two categories does seem to be something which largely, ONLY us, as tubists really care about.

A couple of years ago I was playing Dvorak 6 and had decided to play on my Neptune as providing the tone I wanted for the work. I used the Neptune throughout all the rehearsals, but then, for a reason I will not go into here (another story in itself), I could not use my big tuba for the concert and had no option but to play my Melton Eb. I was expecting some comment from the conductor, or other players about its very different tone. However, no-one commented, or even appeared to notice what to me was a substantial change in timbre. So it seems, although we make a big deal about if a bass, or contrabass tuba is used - it is of little importance to other musicians with which we play

Here in the UK there are still players who use a Besson EEb, or similar for everything and no-one seems to mind the 'wrong' sort of tuba being used for much of the music - and to my mind using an EEb for Shostakovich is as much incorrect as using a CC BAT for Brahms.

[rocksanddirt]

Me'sa only own-a one-a tuba. Me'sa only play-a one-a tuba!

ditto.

[tclements]

This is a real bee in my bonnet. Just because a composer is successful, or well known, id does NOT mean he knows how to write for our instrument. MANY composers look in the Piston Instrumentation book and notice that Provofiev 6th Symphony has a low Db, and "Pictures" has a high G#. Ergo, the tuba's range is Db' to g#. I used to play the Cabrillo Festival in Santa Cruz, Calif, and while I loved the music and really believe in the mission, there were MANY parts I saw where I swear the composer never spoke with a tubist. Once, a composer asked me, "What do you think of that tuba part I wrote?" I really got the feeling that he was really proud of what he had done. And before I could think about a REAL answer I said (and God forgive me), "Well, it probably sounded pretty good on the piano."

[J.c. Sherman]

Too true... many composers are clueless... too true.

That said, a composer grows up, matures, learns, and writes in a sonic envirtonment where a TUBA is a certain thing in their minds. In Paris in 1920, it's a baby C. In Germany in 1898, it's an F, or a BBb if it's a Kontrabasse. In Sweden in 2045... well, you get the idea...

Etc.

You can't separate a composer from their sound concept completely.

J.c.S.

[Alex C]

I've also met composers who are very knowledgeable to the differences of Bass tuba and Contrabass tuba. I am only inquiring as to if we should take this into consideration.)

I've met numerous composers and on the whole, they do not know the difference between a bass and a contrabass tuba. You would recognize most of the names and two of them have won international recognition.

Most are vaguely aware that there are different keyed tubas but are only concerned that they do not have to supply a transposed part. Mahler was aware that there were two different instruments but, in my study of the scores, chose the instrument largely based on range.

I have to agree with earlier posts that the trumpets don't necessarily scramble for the rotary trumpets, they want to make the sound they regard as their best. You should do the same.

[windshieldbug]

It is my experience that composers write to the sound in their head; as instrumentalists, it is our job to reproduce (and may I say, enhance (gasp!)) this sound, however written, and however interpreted by a conductor.

That's what makes this job so much fun!

[J.c. Sherman]

It is my experience that composers write to the sound in their head; as instrumentalists, it is our job to reproduce (and may I say, enhance (gasp!)) this sound, however written, and however interpreted by a conductor.

That's what makes this job so much fun!

Well said!

J.c.S.