A light rotary CC for marching/standing gigs?

[Søren]

If you have access to a good repairman I would suggest buying one of the old Cerveny BBb helikons and shorten the main tuningslide. These thinges usually have a BIG straight section of tubing after the valveblock. I have owned a couple of these, and they are quite light (compared to American sousaphones). And compared to "normal" tubas the weight is distributed better on your body.
I think that the sound made by some of the older ones is really good.

You need to find a good example of one of the old ones (before they put the main tuningslide before the valveblock). And maybe a valve rebuild too. But I think that would give you a very nice marching horn.

The best example I can find right now is the picture on the main page on the folowing site: http://www.tubamax.de/

[eupher61]

My old Piggy was c. 1976-77, and that C was absolutely fine. I had to throw the first slide for the 4th line F, anything 1-2, and the lowest range. Not difficult at all.

[Rick Denney]

These are all still pretty heavy tubas, with the exception of the Piggy. My 621 F weighs five pounds more than my old Alexander. THAT is light! All the Miraphone tubas are fairly hefty. The older Alex 163s were like a Coke can in wall thickness.

My 186 (4-valve Bb) weighs 18 pounds, and is the lightest Bb tuba I own by far (except for the fiberglass Martin--definitely not an option for Jonathon). That's what I use for standing gigs that need a contrabass. I would evaluate whether that fifth valve has value for that application, and a four-valve model will be cheaper, too.

Also, the acoustic needs for outdoors are different than for indoors. I find the special qualities of my Holton are greatly diminished outdoors. The wide propagation that I think is a key feature of a BAT has nothing to reflect from to reach the listener. The Miraphone seems to have the central punch needed to be heard in these circumstances. A great bottom end is probably unattainable in space that provides no resonance and high absorption for the lower harmonics. Klaus will disagree, but that's been my experience. Outdoors, I end up blowing my brains out on the Holton.

Rick "thinking a carefully selected Piggy would be a good choice, too" Denney

[Wyvern]

Rick "thinking a carefully selected Piggy would be a good choice, too" Denney

The Piggy certainly sounds the most promising for this purpose. I am interested in hearing their tone. Can anyone point me to a recording of a Piggy, or would be willing to email me one?

[eupher61]

Maybe it will suffice to say that Roger Bobo used a Piggy, on occasion, in the LA Philharmonic???

Generally, a big fat sound, able to stand up to all but the biggest orchestra demands. I had no trouble with 50-55 piece concert bands and bigger orchestras.

But, emphasis MUST be placed on "TRY IT OUT FIRST"!!!! They can be extremely variable from one example to the next.

[imperialbari]

Clicked the Hampshire Police Band link and saw the Malta parade video (the one starting with Wellington, which I haven’t played since around 1962). I liked the tuba sound, which was full and efficient. A bit to my surprise as the two tubas looked like being Sovereign Eb’s, likely 982’s. Normally I greatly prefer BBb basses in marches. But these two players may have done what I did when playing Eb in a brass band with a weak BBb line: took a lot of passages an octave down.

I don’t doubt that a small 3RV Eb tuba may be loud. I heard no efficient bass trombone in the Malta video, so the small Eb tuba could kind of fill that niche. But lay out a full tuba foundation all on its own? Hardly.

But then you very likely own the right solution, tubawise, already. Who says the concert band repertory has to be played on the Neptune?

I would guess, that your Cerveny BBb is somewhat lighter than the Neptune, if both makers stick to each their traditions for metal thickness. The Cerveny would do fine in the seated repertory, in the march repertory, and in any overlaps between these.

Here on TubeNet you refer to the Hampshire Police Band. On your orchestral page you refer to The Hampshire ex-servicemens’ band. Are those bands the same? It wouldn’t be the first time a band serves two purposes under different names.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Klaus, I am not in the parade on that video as only a small band was required and I am not experienced at marching. Only one of those two Sovereign Eb players is regular with the band, but I doubt if either was putting it down an octave.

You are right that I could use the Cerveny Kaiser with the band and I have considered such, but first I have to become proficient at BBb bass clef reading - which I am not at present. Even then, when there is no Eb bass playing with me (probably 1/3 of gigs), I think the Neptune works better, as my impression is that the very broad tone of the Cerveny really needs the definition of a smaller tuba on top. However, the Cerveny is certainly a lot lighter (less that the 4/4 B&S PT-20 I previously owned!) so I would not rule out marching with that.

Incidentally, I would not consider my Haag 3rv Eb as 'small', it is actually larger in bore and overall dimensions than a Sovereign Eb. The only thing small about it is the bell flair to only 15".

The page in that link is out of date (I must update). The Hampshire Ex-Serviceman's band has since finished and the Police band is my new band.

[imperialbari]

I had guessed that you weren’t in the Malta parade, as you very likely had told about it in one context or another. And you never mentioned playing a British tuba. Apparently you get away with being as un-British in that respect as one possibly can imagine.

I get your idea about wishing a definition to the bass line also when being the lone tuba. Still I find that a major burden placed on one player to assume delivery of foundation plus definition of the bass lien.

As a volunteer band you have to accept special work schedules followed by your members. In some sections you have slack allowing for a shuffling so that all parts are covered. I don’t know about how many trombones you have, but if you have more than two tenors, the definition aspect of the bass line may be solved with ease. In most cases the bass trombone plays one octave on top of the contrabass line in marches. I remember no marches taking the BBb basses below concert F or E. That allows the bass bone to be covered by a tenor trombone, which doesn’t even need a valve. Still a 0.547 tenor with one valve would give a better sound and easier execution of the part.

With such solution in the definition area, you may take the large Cerveny and concentrate on the foundation aspect.

There are notation/reading aspects to this also. In brass bands the Eb tubas rarely have divisi in street marches. If an Eb player wants to help out the BBb line, he has to take the notes an octave down himself. But isn’t it so that all tubas play from identical parts in the concert/military-band bass clef versions? With divisi in a lot of passages? The Eb guys on Malta may not have thought of transposing down an octave. They just played the lower line in the divisi passages whenever comfortable.

If you are at a good standing with one or a few librarians in brass bands you also may apply a dirty trick making your BBb playing in the street repertory easier. If you can get the brass band BBb parts for your concert band marches, then they will be the same as the lower line in the bass clef parts. As I read the British catalogues back before 1970, the marches were issued in fully compatible versions for brass band, British military band, and concert bands as known in the US, Central Europe, and France/Belgium/The Netherlands. The arrangement was the same. Only the permutation of parts differed.

And then my practice earlier this evening gave me an idea for an instrument that will fulfil most of your needs: a Conn 28K. Dark and full with a good bite. If you want something in CC you have to lure bloke’s helicon out of him.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

But isn’t it so that all tubas play from identical parts in the concert/military-band bass clef versions? With divisi in a lot of passages? The Eb guys on Malta may not have thought of transposing down an octave. They just played the lower line in the divisi passages whenever comfortable.

That is true! In divisi passages it is usual for at least one bass to play the lower part, even if both are on Eb's. When on anything other than my 3 valve Eb, I will usually play the lower part, even if the only bass.

It is an idea to use brass band parts, but I would far rather learn to play the BBb properly (e.g. in bass clef). It is just a matter of finding the time to work at it in my busy schedule

[imperialbari]

You see your choice of instrument in the context of the band, which is a productive approach.

As for the definition of the bass line, I have advocated the use of a bass trombone (which I do not hear in the Malta video), but there is one option more.

Your band has a baritone saxophone. American band brasses are not too happy of the many saxophones in community bands, also because they often are played rock-band style. What I have heard of saxes in European bands more points towards classical schooling. I only have heard, live, one British band with a full AATB sax quartet. That band from the Territorial Army would have worked well, had the solo cornet not been so terribly shrill. My point is, that if the baritone sax player is asked to lean on the bass line in marches without too much legato, then the overall perception of the bass line also will be more about clarity.

Klaus

[Mwtuba32]

St petersburg CC?

[IkeH]

I agree with the older Piggy CC for your purposes. I've had one for a few years and wish I'd had it all along. Nice light horn, plays reasonably well in tune, punchy, dark tone, and very easy to play. We have a Marching Elvis(Elvii) group that occasionally does an event, and the inevitable strolling dixie gig will pop up. Works great for those as well as quintet or just about anything else. The first Center City CD has Craig Knox on one of these, and it's just the ideal quintet sound for me.

Ike

[Wyvern]

As for the definition of the bass line...there is one option more...Your band has a baritone saxophone.

Interestingly, I played with another concert band on Saturday and sat next to the baritone sax. I was surprised how much of the time the sax part was in unison with the bass - probably more than half the time. Something I have never noticed with the saxophones the other side of the band.

Just as an experiment I tried putting my marching strap on the Cerveny 701 to see what it was like carrying. Hardly complies with my criteria of 'light', but of course its sound is incredible. I figure for marching the choice of tuba is a balance between weight and desired tone (I no doubt have a leaning towards BIG tubas). However I would really like to try a Piggy! Anyone reading this in the UK with one they would be willing to let me have a blow?

[imperialbari]

The last Piggy video link provided on TN displayed its use in an outdoor Klezmer concert. Very effective sound.

My knowledge about the baritone sax in British bands partially comes from a book on band instrumentation, which I read 45 years ago. Likely written by Denis Wright.

The author complains that the baritone sax is mostly sent along with the tubas. He wanted it to play more along with the euphonium counter melodies. However most of the common British marches were written before that book anyway, so you very likely will find the baritone sax playing the upper tuba line almost exclusively in marches.

The baritone sax player may have been schooled to think of him-/herself as a woodwind bass only, so that he/she will not do that little extra needed to support the full band, when there is a shortage of tubas. Talking this through with the director and the bari player may end up with something productive for everybody.

Still I consider the placement of a surplus tenor trombone player on the vacant bass trombone part being another, supplementary way, to go when it comes to giving the bass line some definition. Such tenor trombonist would be able to read bass clef already from the tenor parts, and he/she could still use his/hers normal instrument, if it isn’t a pea-shooter.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I hadn’t music available to back my thoughts presented above here until I started working with the LOC Sousa material.

The 1895 samples below here clearly display the relationship between Basses and Baritone Saxophone parts in marches. The differences are in the octave placement and in a few grace notes. The latter ones may be worth stealing down in the tuba part.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

I have just found a nice old Miraphone 185 CC which I am going to trial for my strolling gigs. First impression is - it might well fulfil the role. Seems to have a good full tone, no glaring intonation problems and not be too heavy. Would just have to get used to that 2 tone 5th valve

Anyway, have a couple of gigs coming up at which I can play test before deciding.

[imperialbari]

I have just found a nice old Miraphone 185 CC which I am going to trial for my strolling gigs. First impression is - it might well fulfil the role. Seems to have a good full tone, no glaring intonation problems and not be too heavy. Would just have to get used to that 2 tone 5th valve

Anyway, have a couple of gigs coming up at which I can play test before deciding.

Would it be very costly to have the 5th loop changed to your usual long whole step?

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Would it be very costly to have the 5th loop changed to your usual long whole step?

Don't know? Anyone here done it? Does not look easy to me. Anyway, I am not even considering unless I decide to get the 185 - it is really no big deal!

[Wyvern]

Would you really be using a 5th valve on a contrabass tuba playing marching music?

Is not necessarily just marching music. Do sometimes play 'concert music' standing as well! However a 5th valve in this situation is not crucial I think. Only really needed for a low C# or D and will no doubt soon get used to the alternative fingering for those

[Wyvern]

Well, I did not really take to the Miraphone I trialed (not least because of the two tone 5th valve) and followed up trying out a 1992 vintage B&S PT-3 3/4 CC in pretty good condition. I have now played the PT-3 for a couple of band gigs and really like it. Not too heavy to carry, but good colourful full tone with a really wicked low register. It is almost like a 'baby Neptune'! So will be adding to my stable.

Jonathan "who seems to particularly like the tone from B&S tubas"