Got a new ( to me ) tuba, and now I have a question

[NDSPTuba]

I just bought a used 2341 King tuba yesterday, and I love the sound and ease of play. And I was hoping that the intonation problems I was having with my Conn 11J would be a thing of the past with the King. They are better, but they are not gone. The scale seems to be all over the place, but mostly I'm flat on everything. On the Conn I had the main tuning slide all the way in and still was flat in the low register. On the King I have the main tuning pulled about 3/4" to get the bugle in tune, low register is in tune, but none of the slides are more than 1/2" pulled to be in tune, which leaves with with nothing to work with for slide pulling/pushing for the flat partials. Like high G. Now let me preface to say that up until now I have been using a 186 BBb in community band and have had no problem what so ever playing in tune. Almost didn't even have to think about it. I'm beginning to think it is a mouthpiece issue. I have never bought into the whole idea that the mouthpiece could effect the overall tuning of an instrument, but I now find myself hoping it is true. I have used the standard Conn Helleberg on all the different instruments. The 186 having a larger bore than the Conn and King. That is the only thing I can think of that might be contributing to my intonation woes on the smaller bore instruments. A colleague of mine mentioned that a larger back bore mouthpiece plays sharper. If that is the case, what would qualify as a larger back bore to the helleberg. Does anyone have a mouthpiece suggestions?

PS: I have tried playing a Kelly 18 on the King and Conn and it really didn't seems to have any appreciable different in the intonation.

[jeopardymaster]

I wouldn't stop trying other mouthpieces. I believe both the Conn Helleberg and the Kelly would be considered fairly deep cups. I admit to some bias - I've not had good results with the Conn H.

A shallower cup and/or tighter throat might match better to the King and address your issue.

FWIW, I had a King that played like tight pants regardless of which MP I tried. Way too tight. But they're not all the same, nor are we.

[bort]

Bloke is right, second opinions are always good.

Also, 2341's and 186's are different types of tubas, so they will play differently and you'll need some time to get used to it. They are both standards, and both reliable with good reputations, but they are different.

I remember trying a section mate's old 2341 once, and (embarassingly) couldn't get a good sound out of it -- for the smaller bore size, I was overblowing...by a lot. Once I relaxed my airstream, it was a lot easier to play.

[NDSPTuba]

I was thinking that a mouthpiece couldn't effect a change that much. I did a tune the whole tuba session with the tuner right in front of me. I tried "my" technique of not looking at the tuner and finding the sweet spot for each note resonantly and then looked at the tuner to see where it was. When I did this during my F. Horn days it was always able to get the majority of the notes to be right on with a strobe tuner. Maybe I'm expecting to much in the intonation department. What is an acceptable +/- on the tuner to consider it "in tune" ?

[iiipopes]

If you really like the intonation and everything else but the breath requirements of a 186, do what I did: purchase a Curry D mouthpiece in your preferred cup diameter. It has just enough rounding at the bottom of the cup to give good feedback and a little "resistance" to help manage breath. I've gone from always feeling like I needed a third lung to really enjoying longer phrases.

The rim is really wide, more like a 24AW rim, so if you need to or prefer a different rim profile, as I did, Matt and Vladimir at Dillons can make it work for you.

I know -- the "now you tell me" after you've gone and purchased the King.

OK -- second possibility: A Schilke Helleberg or Helleberg II. Both work very well on a Reynolds Contempora, which is a very, very similar tuba. You might try one of those on your King.

Being used, have you had it checked for leaks? Any leak will play havoc with intonation.

[Matt G]

How used is this tuba?

Sounds like there *may* be some air leakage, which may effect the horn in a similar manner to what you describe. I had an old York Eb that had similar intonation characteristics due to some leaky valves.

If you can, take Bloke up on his offer. He should be able to identify what the issue is fairly quickly.

[NDSPTuba]

The story on the Tuba. It is a late 70's early 80's model 2341. The guy I bought it from said it bought it "new" from a music store in Maryland a little over a year ago. It had been sitting on a self in there store for that amount of time. He used it for a little over a year and then bought himself Miraphone to play. It is in really good condition appearance wise. The valves look brand new. One odd thing though. Is I did the compression test thing( pull the slide and pop the valve ) on all the valves. 2 and 4 had a good pop, 1 and 3 seemed to have no compression. I thought that maybe since 1 and 3 are the only slides available from the top to manipulate that maybe this valves had been vented, but I didn't see any visual evidence of that.

[The Big Ben]

1 and 3 seemed to have no compression. I thought that maybe since 1 and 3 are the only slides available from the top to manipulate that maybe this valves had been vented, but I didn't see any visual evidence of that.

Does #3 have a water key? (My 2340 does not but I think the 2341 does.) If it has sat around a lot, that key might have dried up and be leaking a little bit. Take a chunk of toilet paper and fold it over a bunch of times to make a little pad and put one under each water key and give it a blow. Toilet paper is unsightly but does seal very well and, if that solves the problem, you can fix it correctly with cork or neoprene or realign it or whatever...

Mouthpiece wise, I'm using a Yamaha version of a Bach 32E. I also have a Helleberg, a Bach 7 and a Bach 18. The Helleberg sounds best but I can control the little tiny mouthpiece better so I'm using it until I am better.

[Dan Schultz]

The story on the Tuba. It is a late 70's early 80's model 2341. The guy I bought it from said it bought it "new" from a music store in Maryland a little over a year ago. ....

Although I suppose it's possible.... I find it hard to fathom that a horn built thirty years ago can still be 'new'. You might want to validate this story with the music store that the horn was purchased from.

If the horn appears 'new' and the 1st slide is on the top, check to see if the 1st and 3rd pistons are vented. That would explain the lack of compression. Just a thought.