Amati Kraslice 4 Valve Rotary - Advice?

[Uncle Buck]

You didn't mention your location, but assuming you are in North America, I would think a little more research and patience could provide a better alternative to the risks of doing this kind of transaction overseas.

For someone who has lots of experience with overseas transactions, the risk might be less. For someone in your situation (apparently trying to make a one-time purchase for a church, very limited funds), IMHO, the risk isn't worth it. There are lots of reasonably priced used BBb tubas out there, closer to home.

[imperialbari]

I have pretty good guess about who the German seller is. The guy I am thinking of is top notch, when it comes to reliability. He is not a brass man himself, but I have helped him with a measurement table to tell the pitch of brass instruments. That guy has just one fault: he is grossly overpricing his instruments in form of too high auction reserves.

Piston Amati’s are no-goes in my book, but then I am biased from 48 years of knowledge. The rotary Amati’s are different insofar, that they acoustically are Cerveny’s just in a more modest incarnation when it comes to brass chosen over nickel silver in valve tubing and valve transmission. If I came by a well playing Amati rotor instrument, I would buy it at the right price, and then be prepared to exchange the transmission sooner than with let’s say a Weltklang.

If we are speaking of the same tuba, I have decided not to consider it for price reasons, but then I am a tough collector reasonably informed about the auction market here in Europe. You are welcome to mail, not PM, me via the button to the right for private communication (tell your mail address that way).

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre in Denmark (reasonably good in German reading)

[The Big Ben]

Suggestions as to where we might find some good inexpensive BBb rotary alternatives?

Give Joe Sellmansburger at MidSouth Music in Memphis a call. He posts here as 'bloke'. He knows lots of stuff and might have a deal for ya. You could PM him here or look him up in the Memphis phone book.

Dillon Music (a sponsor here) has an inexpensive BBb rotary horn that might fit the bill. David Fedderley at Baltimore Brass (also a sponsor here) has an inexpensive BBb rotary which might be OK for you. Both of these shops have real tuba people at the helm and, if they say its a good horn for the money, it is.

Dan Schultz (Tuba Tinker) posts here and has a shop, The Village Tinker. He offers used horns of all types and might be able to fix you up. He's a sponsor here also.

Bloke is in the South. Dan is in the Midwest The other two guys are Yankees but don't hold that against them.

The sponsors have links under (interestingly enough) 'Shops" on the top menu of this site.

Good luck. Making a 'joyful noise' is a great way to worship God. Hope it works out.

Jeff "Toot, toot" Benedict

[Tubaryan12]

Opelika, Alabama: Where I'd probably still be if not for the ex-wife

Tubaryan "still mad I had to leave a place where I could target shoot on the side of the road" 12

p.s....and that's not the only thing I miss about Opelika

[tbn.al]

My church bought an Amati just like the one you mention several years ago, but for a lot less money. It proved to be a very reliable instrument with an excellent tone and decent pitch. A very suitable substitute for a Miraphone 186. It is now in the hands of another poster here, SRanney, who could give you a reliable view of the playing characteristics. He is a fine tuba player who studied under some of the greats and was our church tubist for 8 years. PM him. He'll be glad to fill you in. I will coution you that for less money than the Amati is going to cost you, you could get a suitable horn closer to home.

[imperialbari]

It's tough getting a horn for a church to use a few times a year in the middle of a recession...for some reason...people are not sharing my sense of priority on this purchase.

Then go use it several times a year.

Klaus

[Uncle Buck]

I wouldn't have anything to add to the excellent suggestions for vendors already mentioned.

I should clarify, though, that I wasn't meaning to imply that domestic transactions are risk-free. (Although I would consider all the vendors mentioned previously in this thread to be pretty darn low-risk.) Always do your homework, but I just thought for a scenario like this one, the additional risk of an overseas transaction might not be the best.

(Even with the good recommendation from Klaus, a reliable source, the overseas nature of the transaction still increases the risk at least a little.)

[imperialbari]

One or both of these factors has/have to be special to justify tuba transactions across the pond:

the instrument itself

the price

In this present case I hardly guessed right about the seller, but Amati tubas are so common in the US, that it isn’t likely to do a better private deal over the water.

Discrimination isn’t allowed, but pragmatism is. 5 or 6 years ago German eBay sellers were plain amateurs openly announcing breaks of auction rules in presentations. In one case I used that to outsmart a guy, but I didn’t like the situation, which has changed for the very much better since then. I just had a silly situation with an Italian seller, who in his amateurism wasted my time. I only lost $1 in eSnipe fee, so I will survive.

In general deals are easier, if they do not cross custom lines. Which happens to be the foundation idea of the US as well as of the EU. My strong side is to read poor presentations, which others stay away from, so that I get favourable deals. In that context customs and VAT are annoying, whereas the fixed rates for carrier handling of border red tape often is downright disproportionally high.

Switzerland has great sellers of used brass, but after having one favourable buy tainted by fees for the Danish Post to handle customs I stay away from that market. At least around 2000 US citizens had the option to handle their own customs paperwork, but we don’t have that option.

bloke is a tough eBay buyer of wrecks for rebuild and resale. I am not as good as him within my target market. I stay silent on specifics until arrival of good, but I don’t mind helping others with different targets than mine. Just paid and got T&T details on a very special find, which will be told of, when it is here.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Odd world. The tuba in question is exactly the one I abstained from. I didn’t know (or remember) the hometown of the seller.

Ken sent me the photos, which I recognised at once.

My general rule as a collector is that buys shall be almost immediately playable. If the price is low I accept to do some flushing, corking, lubrication, and adjusting myself. One FUBAR tuba made it here, but only because it was Danish made and had Berliner Pumpen. Even my 1870 Eb 3+1 Besson Eb is playable in modern pitch after a little, fully reversible, messing with some spare tubing already being in my home.

Being a teacher before anything else I will post a few times to show the photos, and then let TubeNet reveal, why my suspicion is, that this tuba will be far more expensive than the sticker price plus shipping from Europe plus whatever US customs might apply.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

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[imperialbari]

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[imperialbari]

I say get this 186 for $2100 instead-
http://baltimorebrass.net/index.php?cat=5

Here it is:



And I tend to agree because the dubious matters about the Amati already have been taken care of in this Miraphone. Which started out as a better instrument anyway. And the seller is in your own country.

Take that from a person owning several Czech instruments, but no Miraphones.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I don’t like the green stuff. Nor the sharp edges of some of the dents. The metal is thin because that is the Czech way of getting alive instruments, but I am suspicious about the storing of this instrument, which isn’t new (valve mechanism shows that). My guts tell me that the metal has become too brittle.

The Miraphone isn’t much newer, but you can see that the metal has been worked on recently, and that it has survived the work.

The German seller is honest. But nobody can be honest beyond his abilities/level of knowledge, and he is no brass man. The Baltimore seller has his reputation as pro tubist in a rather large orchestra at stake.

My guess is that the Amati will end at roughly 2/3 of the Miraphone’s sticker price, and the Amati isn’t guaranteed to be playable because the seller cannot test it. The Miraphone shall be playable out of the box from the way it is advertised. The photo shows an older instrument in a sound condition with no lacquer over wear and repairs. That looks honest to me.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

The German seller is honest. But nobody can be honest beyond his abilities/level of knowledge, and he is no brass man. The Baltimore seller has his reputation as pro tubist in a rather large orchestra at stake.

My guess is that the Amati will end at roughly 2/3 of the Miraphone’s sticker price, and the Amati isn’t guaranteed to be playable because the seller cannot test it. The Miraphone shall be playable out of the box from the way it is advertised. The photo shows an older instrument in a sound condition with no lacquer over wear and repairs. That looks honest to me.

I agree if you can swing the price of the Mira 186 at Baltimore Brass, that would be a very good deal. It could look better by stripping off the rest of the lacquer and polishing the raw brass. The materials to do that are kind of cheap and it would just be your time. Of course, you could use it just like it is.

[rocksanddirt]

regarding the idea of only playing a few times a year.....

I play my tuba nearly every week at church, just the base lines of the hymns. People tell me it really ads a lot to the richness of the sound.

[imperialbari]

Congratulations!

But then you kind of owe us the story about how you found that 186 so soon. I suspect that it was a more local find that the Baltimore sample discussed.

As for gig bags: no gig bag is better than a cheapish one with thin or no foam.

Klaus

[shovelingtom]

I look forward to playing much more than twice a year...that's just our formal gigs with choir and orchestra...we are starting a new ensemble in the spring and I'm excited about helping with that. We have a new Minister of Music that moved here from Memphis and he's awesome!
Thanks to everybody for their advice and input.
TODAY! I PICKED UP A MIRAPHONE 186 4-U. I am SOOOOO EXCITED!! Now I'll go post a request for some help picking out a case or gig bag.
To one and all...your input helped make this decision possible and we all agree it was worth the extra $$ to go with the Miraphone.

You the one who beat me on the eBay auction for the 1962 one coming out of California?

Congrats either way!

[rocksanddirt]

Congratulations!

check out Altieri gig bags. http://www.altieribags.com/index.html

I have one for my used 186, and really like it.

Though if the horn is going to live at the church, maybe a hard case, or cabinet would be a better option?