Attention: A great player can make a bad horn sound great

[Eric B]

So if the instrument make no difference, then why don't you go get rid of your Miraphones and buy small bore chinese made tubas?

not sure that this is a fair comment, since we all work hard to get the instruments we want.
some bad players wil always have more money than sense, and buy expensive instruments and still sound bad when playing them...life is full of injustice!!

Obviously, if you were to conduct an experiment with an amateur and a professional playing on a beat up, leaky Yamaha ¾ beginner tuba and an MW 5450, the result would be that the professional will sound better on both. This conclusion is so predictable, that it would b e waste of time to even pursue such an experiment. That being said, the professional will sound much better on the MW 5450 than on the beginner Yamaha. That’s why we all endeavor to purchase an instrument that will give us the best opportunity to sound great and you have to pay more for that quality. While I agree that the player is the dominant factor, it would be as foolish for Alan Baer to use an old 3 valve ¾ Yamaha with the NY Phil as it would be for Jeff Gordon to race my old ’93 Toyota Corolla in Daytona 500.

[pierso20]

Obviously, if you were to conduct an experiment with an amateur and a professional playing on a beat up, leaky Yamaha ¾ beginner tuba and an MW 5450, the result would be that the professional will sound better on both. This conclusion is so predictable, that it would b e waste of time to even pursue such an experiment. That being said, the professional will sound much better on the MW 5450 than on the beginner Yamaha. That’s why we all endeavor to purchase an instrument that will give us the best opportunity to sound great and you have to pay more for that quality. While I agree that the player is the dominant factor, it would be as foolish for Alan Baer to use an old 3 valve ¾ Yamaha with the NY Phil as it would be for Jeff Gordon to race my old ’93 Toyota Corolla in Daytona 500.

This sums it up. And further, we all like nice things.........whether I was a good or bad player...If I loved playing and had the money, why not buy a "nice" new horn? But of course, who hates vintage either? I like those old horns.......

Variety? I think so.

[Jeffrey Hicks]

duh

[Dan Schultz]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30759

[imperialbari]

So if the instrument make no difference, then why don't you go get rid of your Miraphones and buy small bore chinese made tubas?

Because I've got a fist full of dollars and I want me a tuba with a silver bell ring.
It's a "bling" kinda thing.

You are so terribly right and true, Schleppy!

I have seen photos of you without a tuba, and you really need to be bling’ed up!

While we are at it:

Is Schlepporello your misspelling of “repository cello”?

K, who never knew of WAM visiting the Texas upper panhandle

[imperialbari]

Oh, missus is just a smokescreen for that hairdresser&customer thing?

K

PS: For those not having seen ’cello depicted just the information that his coiffure is named Crew Cut Extra Short

[The Big Ben]

I sold a student model horn (King 1140 BBb) to a tuba professor who was acting as an agent for a private middle school. I met him at his practice room so he could play it to check it out before he paid for it. He went through a quick routine and sounded fantastic! Much better that me. I hope so- he's a tuba professor and I'm a Trumpet Doofus. I asked him to go through a similar routine on his horn so I could hear the difference. He humored me by picking up his horn and giving me a show. (I don't remember what it was. It was a CC.) He showed off a little by going up high and then down low and then reaaallly fast. He sounded so much better on his horn. The difference was noticeable.

A serious student should have a minimum standard of instrument. There are many under $3K instruments which could do the job. Looking closely and getting lucky, a student might get something under $2K. If enrolled in a reputable college program, there might be something the student could use at the college . There also might be an alumni who might be willing to be a 'tubadaddy' by loaning a horn, selling it on 'rent to own' or maybe even donate a horn. I bet there are any number of people who read this board who own more than one horn and would be willing to furnish a horn to a promising student on those conditions. We went through this in another thread.

Bloke has talked about a guy who won a major Army job who had never had a lesson other than school band and played a fiberglass, 3v souzy. Obviously, an exceptional talent. But few are an 'exceptional talent'. A student shouldn't have to fight the problems of a less than suitable instrument. There are many more things to learn and the horn must not get in the way.

[tubashaman2]

.

[brianf]

Yes, a great player can make a bad horn sound great.

Case in point - go to a tuba show in the exhibit room when a great player is there. When he stumbles accross the TE, they plant down a SP on them and they sound great, there it is. Now all you have to do is take a picture of them with the SP (for a little free advertising to an unknowing band director) then you're starting.

The opposite is true. Bring in a great horn for trade and let VS play it. It will sound like crap and offer you peanuts for it. Now you've got it down!

Yes, a bad player can make a great horn sound bad.

[pierso20]

Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

[jonesbrass]

Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

Not to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.

[pierso20]

[quote="jonesbrassNot to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.[/quote]

I promise you.....a true professional isn't likely to pick a "peashooter". Maybe in certain jazz or dixi settings but not a symphonic player. (I'll bet even the jazz guys play on a larger bore horn). And the real point I was making is that the Trombone player in question (based on that scenario) is likely playing a large bore Trombone. I feel like theres has been some assumptions that a trombone without an F attachment is automatically a "peashooter".

Plus, yes...you're right....a true pro picks the horn that works best....but find me a true pro who will play a garbage instrument by choice!

[Dan Schultz]

Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

I cannot imagine any trombone with a .500 bore being labeled as a 'peashooter' and not being useful for anything. To do so would eliminate some really great jazz instruments... like the Conn 6H, the King 2B, and the early King Tempo. Once again... ANY instrument in the hands of someone who can't play becomes lethal.

[jonesbrass]

Not to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.

I promise you.....a true professional isn't likely to pick a "peashooter". Maybe in certain jazz or dixi settings but not a symphonic player. (I'll bet even the jazz guys play on a larger bore horn). And the real point I was making is that the Trombone player in question (based on that scenario) is likely playing a large bore Trombone. I feel like theres has been some assumptions that a trombone without an F attachment is automatically a "peashooter".

Plus, yes...you're right....a true pro picks the horn that works best....but find me a true pro who will play a garbage instrument by choice!

Exactly. But symphonic players aren't the only pros out there. Even a symphonic player will pick up a smaller bore horn to play a commercial or jazz gig. They probably aren't going to show up with their large-bore shires with the axial flow valve. Just like a military band tuba player isn't going to show up with his Hirsbrunner Grand Orchestra tuba for the ceremonial band gig (ie marching band), they show up with the sousa.
Now a "garbage" horn? That's a whole other matter.

[Davy]

In My trombone playing (which is limited, but nonetheless still there) I use My "pea shooter" for 2 vastly different groups: Playing 3rd in a college big band, and a brass quintet I am in. Mostly because I cant afford an "attachment" horn, but really, I think that my Olds Special pea shooter fits in both worlds pretty well. Not the greatest for the quintet work, but I think that I can make it sound decent.

All that when I cant be using my Bass trombone, of course

[windshieldbug]

These are all tools.

Each tool has it's place, common or uncommon.

A craftsman or artist will pick superior tools, given a choice.
And a craftsman or artist will have a MUCH BETTER CHANCE at making good use of a poor tool than will the average workman.

But it won't be his/her first choice.


Edit: Grammer nazis, where where you?

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Is this post part of Bloke's "why don't more people participate thread"?

[TMurphy]

Can a great player make a bad horn sound great??? Of course...they are great musicians, it's their job to sound great, no matter the situation.

If I grabbed the Amati 4 valve upright my students use at the high school where I work once a week, and handed it to Gene Pokorny, my students would get a wonderful demonstration of what a tuba should sound like, and Mr. Pokorny would get a wonderful example of a bad horn. Of course he can make it sound great, he's Gene Pokorny. He will figure out what he needs to do on that horn to make it sound great. That may require some extra effort on his part, though, something that on a better instrument, he wouldn't have to think about.

Of course, the person behind the mouthpiece is the single biggest factor in the sound coming out of the bell. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact (which, I believe was the not-so-subtle point of Bloke's post). The best players will use the best tools, because they will require less work to produce results that meet their very high standards. The less you have to fight the instrument, the more you can focus on making great music, which is what we're all really after, and the pros are paid to achieve.

[The Big Ben]

1. Buy the best tools you can. Keep them in good condition.

2. Play them as best you can.

3. If you can't afford or obtain an appropriate instrument, play the one you have as best you can.

4. Gene Pokorny playing a 3v Amati student horn will sound good within the confines of the abilities of the instrument. It will sound good because he has the ability in things like dynamics, shading and phrasing. Intonation is bound to be out a bit because, face it, even the best rider can't make a mule run like a racehorse.

[MikeMason]

that hurts ,bloke I got rid of my "real" tuba and bought this one to please you.and still....