Cutting a BBb to get it in tune at 442Hz

[imperialbari]

Theoretically each branch of the main slide should be cut

42,5mm

to achieve a 25 cents raise of pitch on a BBb tuba.

However I probably would do the cuts in shorter increments and test in between.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

But what about the idiot behind the mouthpiece?

Across the board- high, low, in between- I seem to always be flat. I read guys saying, "You might have to pull 1st slide to have notes below the staff in tune". So getting down to CC, BBb and on down, I look up at the tuner and see "10-20 cents flat". I get good and warmed up and play these notes again, nice long, well supported noes and it still reads flst. I've checked and the tuner is set to A=440 The main slide is pushed all the way in and the valve slides are all the way in also.

The horn is a King 2340 in reasonably good condition. Mouthpieces- Helleberg, Bach 7, Bach 18, Yamaha 64 (kinda like a Bach 34E). The phenomena is the same with all the mouthpieces. I use the Yamaha and the Bach 18 most often. I like the sound of the Helleberg best but it's easier to keep the horn full with the Yamaha. The Bach 7, like the Helleberg, is hard for me to keep full of air.

Any ideas?

[imperialbari]

Klaus,if you would please have a look at your Besson New Standard BBb 3 valver,do you think that those 42 mm are possible?

if i look at my one,and would shorten the outer tubing of the tuning slide or the tubes going into those tubes,there is no space anymore for the stays? which hold the tubing of 1st and 3rd valve slide.
On a 4 valved BBb New standard it looks possible to me.

Any coments here?

Kurt

My 1970 Besson New Standard BBb is te 3+1P version, so I cannot be helpful on that aspect.

Back in 1967, when i bought my B&H Imperial baritone, which is 3 pistons Blaikley compensator, I had the main, 1st, and 3rd slides cut. This only could be done by also cutting parts of the base-plates for the U-shaped stays.

Rumours have it that Besson/B&H had a test player who was a cornettist. He is reported to have blown sharp on all larger brasses, which in turn were shipped with too long slides for normal players to meet A=440.

Which mouthpiece do you use?

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I both legs - after cutting - remain at least...say...75mm long, you should be OK.

Joe,the shorter leg of the main tuning slide is only 95 mm long...........

Kurt

Can some of the length be removed by shortening the ferrules of the main tuning slide as well as the legs?

Probably, but a look at my main slide told me about some real re-build work to make that process come out with a safe result. I think Kurt would like costs to stay within reasonable proportions.

My summing up of this thread so far would be:

Cut the branches, so that the shortest ones are the 75mm that bloke tells a safe minimum. Do not have the end rings of the female branches reinstalled until after a longer period of playing, which will tell about the long term influence on the pitch.

Next step after that test period might be to test other mouthpiece models if necessary. Do not mix up the testing of the shortened slide and of the other mouthpieces, as nobody then will be able to tell which change caused which amount of pitch change.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Can one of the smaller bore inner bows be

- unsoldered/removed
- shortened on each side by 2"
- retapered on the new shortened ends
- resoldered/reinstalled

...??

Often, this is less trouble that screwing around with a perfectly good tuning slide.

The British BBb basses look far bigger than they really are because of the design with one less top and one less bottom bow than American designs from York, Conn, and others. My guess about the reason for that is, that the British makers saved two bending procedures.

That leaves one inner top bow being a candidate for bloke’s suggestion. The bell-side end of that bow has a dog-leg shape. And lowering that bow by 2" would have it block for right hand access to move the valves.

The lower inner bow sits, where the taper starts to take off. My guts tell about a real risk of screwing up the intonation.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

But what about the idiot behind the mouthpiece?

Good point but if you cut the idiot playing, you will most certainly be arrested and it won't help the pitch at all.

Yo momma.

[The Big Ben]

But what about the idiot behind the mouthpiece?

Across the board- high, low, in between- I seem to always be flat. I read guys saying, "You might have to pull 1st slide to have notes below the staff in tune". So getting down to CC, BBb and on down, I look up at the tuner and see "10-20 cents flat". I get good and warmed up and play these notes again, nice long, well supported noes and it still reads flst. I've checked and the tuner is set to A=440 The main slide is pushed all the way in and the valve slides are all the way in also.

The horn is a King 2340 in reasonably good condition. Mouthpieces- Helleberg, Bach 7, Bach 18, Yamaha 64 (kinda like a Bach 34E). The phenomena is the same with all the mouthpieces. I use the Yamaha and the Bach 18 most often. I like the sound of the Helleberg best but it's easier to keep the horn full with the Yamaha. The Bach 7, like the Helleberg, is hard for me to keep full of air.

Any ideas?

Old King 2340 tubas (3-valves) and possibly (??) new ones had (have?) overly-long #1 and #3 slide loops to "compensate" for the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations being very sharp. The same was true with Olds/Reynolds, and (I believe) the same tended to be true for the 4-valve versions (as they did not bother to shorten the #1 and #3 loops when they made the 4-valve versions).

Are your open pitches flat, or just quite a few pitches that involve pitches that require valves?

I did all my testing with the tuning slide all the way in. All of the valve slides were also all the way in.

All of the open tones were in tune or a little sharp. (As would be expected.)

The combinations using the first valve (1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-2-3) were about 10 cents flat.

The other fingerings (2, 2-3, 3) were in tune or a little sharp.

I try to adjust the tone with my lips and can't seem to bend it enough to get the 1st valve combos in order.

What can I do about this or will I have to raise DP's ire and buy an HB-50?

Jeff "Flat rather than sharp" Benedict

[iiipopes]

King, traditionally, on all their valved brass, made the 1st valve marginally long so that valve combinations were not sharp. I know. I own one, had another stolen from me, and played many others through the decades. It sounds like a 1/4 inch of shortening the 1st valve slide is what is needed rather than the entire horn.

[Nick Pierce]

What can I do about this or will I have to raise DP's ire and buy an HB-50?

Jeff "Flat rather than sharp" Benedict

Would that really be so upsetting?

[The Big Ben]

What can I do about this or will I have to raise DP's ire and buy an HB-50?

Jeff "Flat rather than sharp" Benedict

Would that really be so upsetting?

Well, no...

But having a little nipped off my first valve tube is lots cheaper than an HB-50. About $15K cheaper...

Jeff "Always buys used" Benedict

[imperialbari]

Of course I cannot be specific about an instrument I never tried. Are all the derivate notes of the 3rd partial F equally sharp? Are the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 8th partial Bb’s in tune with each other? What about the 6th partial and its derivates? Are they an exact octave above those belonging to the 3rd partial?

I play many brass instruments, so I cannot be a specialist on any, even if my focus is on the lower brasses currently. My general strategies encompass large mouthpieces with very open backbores, as they allow me the most on the fly control of sound, pitch, and dynamics. And then I like to have triggers or alternatively enough valves to allow for re-fingering.

Some players of 3 valve instruments with no options for slide adjustments during actual playing tend to pull their 3rd slide so that 2+3 notes are flat and 1+3 or 1+2+3 notes still are too sharp. I do not agree with this strategy. If notes fingered 2+3 are used as leading notes in a given piece of music. I do not pull the 3rd valve. If 2+3 notes are not needed, I pull the 3rd slide so that 1+3 are in tune.

Many scenarios may be imagined, but for now I will assume, that the problem is mostly the 3rd partial F and maybe the first few chromatic steps below that note. If so I would tune the tuba so that the Bb’s line up with the pitch of the band/ensemble/orchestra. I then would play the F fingered 4. If necessary, I would keep the 4th valve pressed for the next few pitches below that F, while applying the normal fingering with the 3 first valves (this will work only because we are discussing a compensating instrument).

Klaus