A light rotary CC for marching/standing gigs?

[Wyvern]

Klaus, I am not in the parade on that video as only a small band was required and I am not experienced at marching. Only one of those two Sovereign Eb players is regular with the band, but I doubt if either was putting it down an octave.

You are right that I could use the Cerveny Kaiser with the band and I have considered such, but first I have to become proficient at BBb bass clef reading - which I am not at present. Even then, when there is no Eb bass playing with me (probably 1/3 of gigs), I think the Neptune works better, as my impression is that the very broad tone of the Cerveny really needs the definition of a smaller tuba on top. However, the Cerveny is certainly a lot lighter (less that the 4/4 B&S PT-20 I previously owned!) so I would not rule out marching with that.

Incidentally, I would not consider my Haag 3rv Eb as 'small', it is actually larger in bore and overall dimensions than a Sovereign Eb. The only thing small about it is the bell flair to only 15".

The page in that link is out of date (I must update). The Hampshire Ex-Serviceman's band has since finished and the Police band is my new band.

[imperialbari]

I had guessed that you weren’t in the Malta parade, as you very likely had told about it in one context or another. And you never mentioned playing a British tuba. Apparently you get away with being as un-British in that respect as one possibly can imagine.

I get your idea about wishing a definition to the bass line also when being the lone tuba. Still I find that a major burden placed on one player to assume delivery of foundation plus definition of the bass lien.

As a volunteer band you have to accept special work schedules followed by your members. In some sections you have slack allowing for a shuffling so that all parts are covered. I don’t know about how many trombones you have, but if you have more than two tenors, the definition aspect of the bass line may be solved with ease. In most cases the bass trombone plays one octave on top of the contrabass line in marches. I remember no marches taking the BBb basses below concert F or E. That allows the bass bone to be covered by a tenor trombone, which doesn’t even need a valve. Still a 0.547 tenor with one valve would give a better sound and easier execution of the part.

With such solution in the definition area, you may take the large Cerveny and concentrate on the foundation aspect.

There are notation/reading aspects to this also. In brass bands the Eb tubas rarely have divisi in street marches. If an Eb player wants to help out the BBb line, he has to take the notes an octave down himself. But isn’t it so that all tubas play from identical parts in the concert/military-band bass clef versions? With divisi in a lot of passages? The Eb guys on Malta may not have thought of transposing down an octave. They just played the lower line in the divisi passages whenever comfortable.

If you are at a good standing with one or a few librarians in brass bands you also may apply a dirty trick making your BBb playing in the street repertory easier. If you can get the brass band BBb parts for your concert band marches, then they will be the same as the lower line in the bass clef parts. As I read the British catalogues back before 1970, the marches were issued in fully compatible versions for brass band, British military band, and concert bands as known in the US, Central Europe, and France/Belgium/The Netherlands. The arrangement was the same. Only the permutation of parts differed.

And then my practice earlier this evening gave me an idea for an instrument that will fulfil most of your needs: a Conn 28K. Dark and full with a good bite. If you want something in CC you have to lure bloke’s helicon out of him.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

But isn’t it so that all tubas play from identical parts in the concert/military-band bass clef versions? With divisi in a lot of passages? The Eb guys on Malta may not have thought of transposing down an octave. They just played the lower line in the divisi passages whenever comfortable.

That is true! In divisi passages it is usual for at least one bass to play the lower part, even if both are on Eb's. When on anything other than my 3 valve Eb, I will usually play the lower part, even if the only bass.

It is an idea to use brass band parts, but I would far rather learn to play the BBb properly (e.g. in bass clef). It is just a matter of finding the time to work at it in my busy schedule

[imperialbari]

You see your choice of instrument in the context of the band, which is a productive approach.

As for the definition of the bass line, I have advocated the use of a bass trombone (which I do not hear in the Malta video), but there is one option more.

Your band has a baritone saxophone. American band brasses are not too happy of the many saxophones in community bands, also because they often are played rock-band style. What I have heard of saxes in European bands more points towards classical schooling. I only have heard, live, one British band with a full AATB sax quartet. That band from the Territorial Army would have worked well, had the solo cornet not been so terribly shrill. My point is, that if the baritone sax player is asked to lean on the bass line in marches without too much legato, then the overall perception of the bass line also will be more about clarity.

Klaus

[Mwtuba32]

St petersburg CC?

[IkeH]

I agree with the older Piggy CC for your purposes. I've had one for a few years and wish I'd had it all along. Nice light horn, plays reasonably well in tune, punchy, dark tone, and very easy to play. We have a Marching Elvis(Elvii) group that occasionally does an event, and the inevitable strolling dixie gig will pop up. Works great for those as well as quintet or just about anything else. The first Center City CD has Craig Knox on one of these, and it's just the ideal quintet sound for me.

Ike

[Wyvern]

As for the definition of the bass line...there is one option more...Your band has a baritone saxophone.

Interestingly, I played with another concert band on Saturday and sat next to the baritone sax. I was surprised how much of the time the sax part was in unison with the bass - probably more than half the time. Something I have never noticed with the saxophones the other side of the band.

Just as an experiment I tried putting my marching strap on the Cerveny 701 to see what it was like carrying. Hardly complies with my criteria of 'light', but of course its sound is incredible. I figure for marching the choice of tuba is a balance between weight and desired tone (I no doubt have a leaning towards BIG tubas). However I would really like to try a Piggy! Anyone reading this in the UK with one they would be willing to let me have a blow?

[imperialbari]

The last Piggy video link provided on TN displayed its use in an outdoor Klezmer concert. Very effective sound.

My knowledge about the baritone sax in British bands partially comes from a book on band instrumentation, which I read 45 years ago. Likely written by Denis Wright.

The author complains that the baritone sax is mostly sent along with the tubas. He wanted it to play more along with the euphonium counter melodies. However most of the common British marches were written before that book anyway, so you very likely will find the baritone sax playing the upper tuba line almost exclusively in marches.

The baritone sax player may have been schooled to think of him-/herself as a woodwind bass only, so that he/she will not do that little extra needed to support the full band, when there is a shortage of tubas. Talking this through with the director and the bari player may end up with something productive for everybody.

Still I consider the placement of a surplus tenor trombone player on the vacant bass trombone part being another, supplementary way, to go when it comes to giving the bass line some definition. Such tenor trombonist would be able to read bass clef already from the tenor parts, and he/she could still use his/hers normal instrument, if it isn’t a pea-shooter.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I hadn’t music available to back my thoughts presented above here until I started working with the LOC Sousa material.

The 1895 samples below here clearly display the relationship between Basses and Baritone Saxophone parts in marches. The differences are in the octave placement and in a few grace notes. The latter ones may be worth stealing down in the tuba part.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

I have just found a nice old Miraphone 185 CC which I am going to trial for my strolling gigs. First impression is - it might well fulfil the role. Seems to have a good full tone, no glaring intonation problems and not be too heavy. Would just have to get used to that 2 tone 5th valve

Anyway, have a couple of gigs coming up at which I can play test before deciding.

[imperialbari]

I have just found a nice old Miraphone 185 CC which I am going to trial for my strolling gigs. First impression is - it might well fulfil the role. Seems to have a good full tone, no glaring intonation problems and not be too heavy. Would just have to get used to that 2 tone 5th valve

Anyway, have a couple of gigs coming up at which I can play test before deciding.

Would it be very costly to have the 5th loop changed to your usual long whole step?

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Would it be very costly to have the 5th loop changed to your usual long whole step?

Don't know? Anyone here done it? Does not look easy to me. Anyway, I am not even considering unless I decide to get the 185 - it is really no big deal!

[Wyvern]

Would you really be using a 5th valve on a contrabass tuba playing marching music?

Is not necessarily just marching music. Do sometimes play 'concert music' standing as well! However a 5th valve in this situation is not crucial I think. Only really needed for a low C# or D and will no doubt soon get used to the alternative fingering for those

[Wyvern]

Well, I did not really take to the Miraphone I trialed (not least because of the two tone 5th valve) and followed up trying out a 1992 vintage B&S PT-3 3/4 CC in pretty good condition. I have now played the PT-3 for a couple of band gigs and really like it. Not too heavy to carry, but good colourful full tone with a really wicked low register. It is almost like a 'baby Neptune'! So will be adding to my stable.

Jonathan "who seems to particularly like the tone from B&S tubas"

[Søren]

Jonathan "who seems to particularly like the tone from B&S tubas"

You are not the only one with that sound concept! I really like the way they sound AND the way they play.

[Nick Pierce]

Should do well for you. I love mine.

[Wyvern]

Look on the bright side Jonathan. Yes you bought another tuba, BUT this horn is probably much less than your old PT-20.

Yes it is costing less than I sold my PT-20, but the main thing is it's noticeably lighter to carry and therefore much more suitable for my intended use. I think I also prefer the more Germanic tone of the PT-3, so have no doubt I've done the right thing.

Unless my playing needs substantially change in the future, I should now be fully set up for tubas. My old Haag Eb will now go back to being a wall hanging, just coming down for carol playing at Christmas.

[imperialbari]

needs an update.

K

[oedipoes]

neptune,

congratulations on the new tuba !

maybe a little off-thread, but anyway:
since you now own a B&S, Melton and Cerveny, can you comment on the quality of finish and rotor mechanics if you compare the three brands? (laquer finish, starting oxidation, sticking rotors, ...)

I am searching for a BBb and was quite into buying a willson piston 3100-FA5 when I had the €'s but your posts about the rotary cerveny kaiser made me more than interested in the 701. I am just not quite sure about the quality and durability, I just don't know cerveny that well... and I haven't played the 701 yet.

btw, I bought a quite ancient rotary BBb tuba (pre WW2) over ebay recently and I when received, I'll try to post some BBb hornporn, in attachment, that's what was on ebay as picture.

thx, regards

WIM

[Wyvern]

Oedipoes, I consider Melton, B&S and Cerveny as all of good manufacture. I have had no lacquer problems, or oxidization with any of them and the general finish and build I have found excellent.

The Cerveny 701 is lighter and therefore I guess is made of thinner brass, but the finish is in no way inferior. There is every indication that it is hand-made as the sheet metal joins can be clearly seen on the red brass while the valves are made of nickel silver and are in actual fact the fastest and smoothest of all my tubas. I understand that nickel silver is the very best material for rotary valves. When I got my 701, I compared with a Melton Fafner and my view at the time was it played 95% as well for half the price. I would warn it really sucks the air, but if you have played Kaiser BBb's you know of that characteristic. But the sound it produces makes it worthwhile - really wall shaking! However at the same time when I recently used it to play a solo, from the recording it clearly projected well over the band.

BW Nice looking old Kaiser you have got there!