tuba recommendations

[Kendra]

I have an advanced tuba student who is looking to buy a new tuba. He plans on majoring in tuba performance when he begins college next year. I am primarily a euphonium player so I want to make sure that I lead him in the right direction. He will be trying out tubas at the Midwest Band and Orchestra Clinic tommorow. Can someone please offer some suggestions on what brand/type of tuba he should be looking for. I have some ideas... I just want more! Thanks!

Kendra Gohr

[Rick Denney]

I have an advanced tuba student who is looking to buy a new tuba. He plans on majoring in tuba performance when he begins college next year. I am primarily a euphonium player so I want to make sure that I lead him in the right direction. He will be trying out tubas at the Midwest Band and Orchestra Clinic tommorow. Can someone please offer some suggestions on what brand/type of tuba he should be looking for. I have some ideas... I just want more! Thanks!

Kendra Gohr

Kendra, this is really difficult to answer with just a list of makes and models. Those of us with some gray hair find it amazing that high-school-age students are getting their parents to spend so much, and often for tubas that are too specialized or too quirky for a college kid. The kids are trying to ride a (recalcitrant) Clydesdale with pony skills, and this isn't always a good idea.

As the student's teacher, you are best equipped to assess his skills and needs far beyond any of us who have never heard him play.

So, some principles submitted for consideration. Most high-end professionals change their equipment after getting high-end gigs, and often at intervals after that, so it's apparent to me that even professionals cannot determine or predict what instrument will be perfect for them in future years. If that's the case, then asking a high-schooler to make a lifetime choice seems to me foolish at worst and unhelpful at best.

Thus, my own recommendation to the students who come here making such requests is to choose an instrument based on the following qualities:

1. Versatility. This usually means a 4/4 contrabass. A bass tuba (at least outside the UK) or very small contrabass will be unsuitable for large ensembles, and a 5/4 or (especially) a 6/4 contrabass will be unsuitable for solo and chamber music. All such music will be on the agenda in college.

2. C. I don't think that a C tuba is necessarily any better than a Bb tuba, but if the student's professors believe it is, then a student insisting on using a Bb may have more to prove. Who needs that? Any pro wannabe is going to have to learn all the tuba pitches at some point anyway, and the inability or unwillingness to do such might be a sign that a performance degree isn't the recommended choice.

3. Proven long-term value. This is measured in dollars. Given that it is unlikely that a student will choose the instrument he will continue to use into his professional career, a tuba that retains its value most effectively seems to me the least costly in the long run. It will give him the most trade value in the future when he has a better idea of what tuba he really needs.

4. Good basic performance. Young students should not be saddled with tubas that require herculean tuning gymnastics that professionals sometimes endure in order to get "that sound". The sound should be good, but not at the expense of reasonable response and straightforwardly good intonation.

There are quite a few instruments that fulfill all those requirements. Some remarkably expensive instruments don't, and some inexpensive ones do, so don't shop by price.

Also, I recommend minimizing (for now) the usual advice to have the student "play everything and let the instrument choose him". I've recently recounted the old story of the golf coach being instructed by an incoming freshman not to mess up his swing. "Son, you don't even have a swing yet." I doubt many high-schoolers are so well formed in their musicianship to know when an instrument is speaking to them musically. They are easily swayed by appearance and brand, and by similarity to what they see their role models playing.

I think it would be mighty hard to go wrong with a Miraphone 186 or 188. They are good enough such that many pros use them their whole careers, and well-regarded enough so that a good used one that is kept in good condition probably will never depreciate. They have excellent intonation, a good sound, good response, and still reinforce good skills. They also have the versatility to be used in orchestra or brass quintet.

There are other choices, and the Miraphone is just an example of an instrument that is consistent with what I think are important principles. I don't like seeing kids spend $xx,xxx (of their parents' money) on a high-end instrument only to find that it's unsuitable for the work they end up doing with it, and then take a bath on it when they need to trade it in.

Finally, you should encourage the student to take a lesson from his prospective tuba instructors at the college level, and get their input (with the understanding that it isn't always unbiased). And there is no emergency; using a school instrument for a couple of years isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the school instrument, of course.

Rick "whose performance-major niece didn't have her own instrument until her senior year in college" Denney

[pierso20]

I wouldn't entertain anymore comments after reading Mr. Denney's. He hit it all right one. Nothing more could be said that would be extra helpful.

Good luck!

[iiipopes]

What Rick said.

[rocksanddirt]

I very much agree with Rick's suggestions. and would also add to not rule out a high end used horn for the first few years either. Of the appropriate general instruments out there (such as the affore recommended Miraphone 186 or 188) a used one in good condition is going to play the same as a new horn, but might save a few bucks.

and after the initial depreciation of "new" to "used" will hold value quite well, with proper attention.

I also heartily second the advice of not playing everything. play the three or four that are realistically the right type of horn and select from those, if he really really wants a new one.

[Tom Waid]

Most high-end professionals change their equipment after getting high-end gigs, and often at intervals after that, so it's apparent to me that even professionals cannot determine or predict what instrument will be perfect for them in future years. If that's the case, then asking a high-schooler to make a lifetime choice seems to me foolish at worst and unhelpful at best.

Rick's entire post is right on the mark. The part that I've quoted above needs, in my opinion, to be emphasized. There is no way a young tuba player can predict the path his or her life will take. It's better to find a versatile instrument with stabile playing characteristics than some "dream" tuba that you think will last you the rest of your life.

Tom "who has given up saying "this should be the last tuba I'll evey buy" Waid

[tbn.al]

Rick's answer to the OP may in fact be the most intelligent, well thought out, well said post I have read on this BB or any other. Right on target!

[TubaGoon]

Wow - Rick's "Resident Genius" title is indeed well deserved! Great, selfless advice (that we can ALL use). Thanks Rick!

[tubashaman2]

.

[ztuba]

I think anyone can play any horn ... specially when they are young. Tell him to get a 6/4 CC and practice on it... He will be able to play anything on whatever he practices enough on. Horn advice doesn't really help anyone until you are going for jobs. IMHO When I train for something I like to use the heavy weights... When you take them off, everything feels light.


Oh yeah and do range exercises on an LM-3



Of course ... that guy Rick said everything that is reasonable ... I just thought I would throw in another very valid perspective. I heard Chester Schmitz played the John WIlliams on a 6/4 ... does anyone know if that is true?

[pierso20]

I think anyone can play any horn ... specially when they are young. Tell him to get a 6/4 CC and practice on it... He will be able to play anything on whatever he practices enough on. Horn advice doesn't really help anyone until you are going for jobs. IMHO When I train for something I like to use the heavy weights... When you take them off, everything feels light.

There is some truth to this. For the first 2 years I played on my current Mirafone (1290) it used quite a bit of air and it's a big horn...big (not a 6/4 though..). Of course, after 2 years, I took the horn in to get cleaned, new felts, and some broken soldering fixed....in the process my tech found that when the horn was reassembled years ago after it was overhauled, the main brace (where the bell section fixes into...not sure what the correct terms are) was not soldered! So I had been playing on a BIG horn with a BIG leak for 2 years...amazingly I had learned how to become air efficient and to get a good sound on it. After this was fixed....wow....things were so much easier and I had a real handle on it. I attribute this though to the fact that I was used to needing more air and required to be very efficient. Exactly as mentioned earlier....practice with heavy weights and everything else feels light.

Of course....most young players couldn't even hold a 6/4 horn.....so....not exactly a good idea. lol But the point is well made.

[BavarianFanfare]

Mr. Denney & TubeNet Community:

I read your recommendation and agree with it. Along with the Miraphone 186 or 188, do you think a Meinl-Weston 25 would also work? The 186 and the 25 are standard BB-Flat Tubas , and would not break the bank. I also agree that a CC is not necessarily better. From my assessment, more tuba players will end up as band directors with some being strong enough to pass an audition to get into a military band of some kind. Very, very, few will be full-time professional players in a symphony, because those that earn those positions stay until they die or are forced to retire for various reasons, and a few may get into some university positions. I, myself, have debated whether I should also venture into the CC area. I like it as well as BB-Flat. I do not think one is better than the other, it just depends on what you are playing. Just my humble opinion, and my thoughts about it.

[The Big Ben]

Mr. Denney & TubeNet Community:

I read your recommendation and agree with it. Along with the Miraphone 186 or 188, do you think a Meinl-Weston 25 would also work? The 186 and the 25 are standard BB-Flat Tubas , and would not break the bank.

I'd like to hear about this, too. In the catalogues, the 186 and the 25 are about the same price but people only rave about the 186 and almost no one talks about the 25.

Is there a reason why?

[Rick Denney]

I'd like to hear about this, too. In the catalogues, the 186 and the 25 are about the same price but people only rave about the 186 and almost no one talks about the 25.

Is there a reason why?

BB and BF: The Model 25 is a standard 4/4 rotary tuba and it would fall into my description, I think. The problem is that Meinl-Weston wasn't that well-known or popular in many parts of the country where Miraphone was both. Thus, they may be harder to find used and may not keep their value quite as well because of a smaller market.

I personally prefer the Miraphone compared to the 25's I've played, but know fine players who would say just the opposite. The 25 is certainly good enough to carry a student through college far enough for them to have developed a more mature sense of what they actually need.

Note that the 25 is a Bb tuba. For a student who is adding a C to their instruments, the C equivalent to the 25 is the Model 32.

As to the Bb vs. C thing: For pro wannabes in college, they will be expected to have facility on all four pitches of tuba before they are done with their training. If that's a problem for them, then they may need to reconsider their objectives and aptitude. There are many college kids who stay with Bb because that's what the university has to loan them. But in the big studios, being willing to get a C and learn to play it might be a test of commitment as much as anything. Short of that, however, tuba players should play what it pleases them to play. I can find no compelling argument for a music teacher to play C unless they want to, and that goes double for amateurs (even if they studied music in college). It is easier to find excellent Bb tubas that are cheaper than their C counterparts, and that fits with non-professional objectives.

Rick "thinking a pro wannabe who sticks with Bb better be able to defend that decision" Denney

[BavarianFanfare]

Mr. Denney & TubeNet Community:

I have played both and like them. The 25 is more resistant in my experience, heavier built, with a bigger bell flare. In fact, the next horns I get will likely purchase will be these exact horns. I have discussed with my own teacher the idea of using and owning good standard German horns with a good mouthpiece set-up, and then apply solid fundamentals, and lots of focused practice. The idea that purchasing very expensive horns will not make an individual a better player. It can make playing easier, but it will not replace practice and fundamentals. I personally own a VMI 2103 and Miraphone 187 and I love these horns. They are keepers. Of course, every horn will sound differently from one to the other in the same model, but I like the differences. If my primary income depended on my performance ability and skills on the horn, I would then think about the best horns out there: Hirsbrunners, Alexanders, Gronitz, Miraphone, B&S, Meinl-Weston, etc. I personally believe that having a parent pay top dollar for an instrument outside of the range of an industry standard CC or BB-Flat is asking too much. This is my humble opinion. Happy Holidays to all!

[sailn2ba]

Kendra, You mentioned that you some ideas and that your student would be trying out some horns. It would interesting to know how that worked out.

[jonesbrass]

If they are wanting to do performance, the professor will probably want them on a CC and eventually an F......

Used 186 or 188 would be great...or the PT 6P on ebay would be a horn that could last.....of course a Miraphone 1291...larger horn but not too large as Bob said.....

I heavily do not reccomend a Willson or anyother BAT till they master the CC and the size difference if they want a larger one

I think Rick hit the nail on the head, but I would add that as a developing student, the important thing is to pay your dues in the practice room and ensembles. Personally, I think the dues are best paid on a contrabass, for this reason:

When I train for something I like to use the heavy weights... When you take them off, everything feels light.

and the fact that developing air, tone concept, and clean playing on a contrabass will definitely make everything easier. I don't necessarily agree that it should be a 6/4, though. a 6/4 won't necessarily be appreciated by the player or ensemble in many situations (ie. brass quintet, solos, etc.). IMHO, there is nothing wrong on sticking with the 4/4 BBb, assuming you've been playing BBb since HS, but not everyone else thinks the same. Until you've paid your dues on one horn well enough to truly master the fundamentals, I wouldn't even worry about a (CC/F/EEb) horn, FWIW.

[ztuba]

K&M tuba stands are for people who can't lift the heavy tubas... I don't lift mine ... I use the stand. Does anyone know if Chester played that solo on his 6/4 cc tuba or was that just someone blowing smoke that told me that?

[BavarianFanfare]

I am a 37 year old man and I use a tuba stand. For me, a stand is good for establishing good posture. For one, I have big hips, a big waist, and am just plain robust. I have never found a chair that was a good fit with my horn or any horn. I have used and use the DEG and K&M stands. I like both, but seem to prefer the DEG due to its compact, portable design, with a bag. If someone knows of a really good square, well padded chair that is portable, I would like to know. I know that Wenger makes many different kinds of chairs, stands, and other related products. Would this be one place to start? For a student, if there are posture issues, I recommend a stand. My humble opinion. Merry Christmas to all!

[Rick Denney]

I like both, but seem to prefer the DEG due to its compact, portable design, with a bag.

FYI: The Baltimore Brass stand has the compact size of the DEG (and will fit in a DEG bag), but the strength and sturdiness of the K&M.

Rick "whose DEG stand failed under the weight of a heavy tuba" Denney