german style kaiser tuba

[oedipoes]

Hi there,

Best wishes for 2009 to you all.

I bought this beautiful tuba on ebay recently (didn't receive it yet).
Does anyone of you have a clue about age and manufacturer of this horn?

It stands 1140mm tall and the bell diameter is 395mm (as to the seller's information)
I can't wait until I can blow it !!!

Oh, and you repair guys, what do you think about the nasty ding in the top bow?
Does it look repairable to you?

Thanks and regards.

[oedipoes]

The rest of the pictures.

[imperialbari]

[Dan Schultz]

Fun looking tuba! That nasty ding in the top bow isn't that difficult to fix with the right size ball and some heavy-duty magnetics. The dent may even come out without removing the bow guard. Yeah.... I've been known to get pretty brutal with 'em!

[Mike-ICR]

I've only worked on a couple of these horns over the years and they all had rotted inside slides. They were a chore to remove but worked well after a good cleaning and new inside slides (Might want to have a tech check for rot). They date between 1920 and 1940-ish and play very well, very warm and in tune. The dents have been very easy to remove, they roll right out assuming you can get to them.

[oedipoes]

Klaus,

You think it looks melton-ish?
The main tuning slide on mine is horizontal, and the 4th valve slide is at the back (more like alexanders tend to have?)
The only similar thing might be the bell shape and the overall size.
Correct me if I'm talking nonsense.

How about the nicely sculpted valve-bottoms? Ever seen that before?

WIm

[imperialbari]

The photo more was meant as a reference to this bell type still being made.

The elaborate bottom caps and the fairly slim cut of the S-arms may point towards an upper end model.

Klaus

[oedipoes]

I've only worked on a couple of these horns over the years and they all had rotted inside slides. They were a chore to remove but worked well after a good cleaning and new inside slides (Might want to have a tech check for rot). They date between 1920 and 1940-ish and play very well, very warm and in tune. The dents have been very easy to remove, they roll right out assuming you can get to them.

Is the rot the result of the material used on these horns or a result of inferior build quality?
Any idea of the country of origin or manufacturer?

Thanks,
WIm

[Rick Denney]

You think it looks melton-ish?

More likely that the Melton 197 was modeled on something similar to what you have acquired.

Wasn't Hilgers trying to replicate, at least in part, an old Bohland and Fuchs that he thought exemplified the best of old kaiser tubas? If so, that might be a clue. That Bohland and Fuchs, as I dimly recall the story, predated WWII.

Rick "surprised to see the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes enter the first and fourth valves vertically rather than at a 45-degree angle" Denney

[Mike-ICR]

I think the rot is a result of the material used. I've only ever seen it on the inside slides (the slides were stuck and the inside slides actually came out in pieces) and once on the mouthpipe (the joint between the mouthpipe and cluster wasn't done properly. Probably a bad repair). Once the problems were fixed everything was fine. The only one I've seen (marked) was made in czechoslovakia. I've only seen 5 in person and every single one was a little bit different.

[Tuba Guy]

Rick "surprised to see the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes enter the first and fourth valves vertically rather than at a 45-degree angle" Denney

just wondering, why would the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes be at an angle different than vertically? I guess it's just my experience, but every rotary horn I've used (YBB641 yech, Mira BBb (sorry, didnt have it long enough to know a number), and a brand unknown little 4 valve rotary Eb) has had those pipes going straight vertically into the valve section (as far as I can tell)

[Rick Denney]

just wondering, why would the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes be at an angle different than vertically?

Your examples are really new in the grand scheme of things, dating from the 60's and 70's. It was more common for really old rotary tubas for the tubing external to the valve cluster to approach at a 45-degree angles. Alexander might have maintained the practice longer than most.

I found this in a Google image search. Notice how the ports at the ends of the cluster come out at an angle. This used to be the common arrangement.



Rick "on dialup and unwilling to search for a better picture" Denney

[Tuba Guy]

Ah. I have seen that on some tubas, but it has never struck me as different. Is there a reason sonically that those are attached that way, or is it just that it is "what was easiest for the makers"?
My experience with old instruments is pretty much piston tubas, though I definitely would not mind one of the big BBbs like at the beginning of this topic...

[imperialbari]

Bends cannot be avoided, but the general strive is to make them as gentle as possible. The 45° exit knuckle is a direct extension of the radial direction of the air entering/leaving the rotor cut-outs.

Klaus

[oedipoes]

I found some interesting pictures on this forum.
My tuba seems to have the bell like Mr. Walter Hilgers' Bohland & Fuchs kaiser and the valve cluster like an old melton Kaiser.
Take a look at these pictures please.
The melton also has the 1st and 4th valve tube coming in straight.

anyone recognising these?

wim

[Dan Schultz]

just wondering, why would the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes be at an angle different than vertically?

Your examples are really new in the grand scheme of things, dating from the 60's and 70's. It was more common for really old rotary tubas for the tubing external to the valve cluster to approach at a 45-degree angles.

This 45 degree angle is just the normal path. Take a look at the tubing BETWEEN the casings. It also comes out and enters the casings at that same angle. At some point in modern manufacturing someone figured out that ALL of the casings could be the same.

[Dan Schultz]

Somebody should have a look at the "Melton-Meisterwerk" Instruments,the connections between the valve casings on those instruments are bent,not straight pieces of tubing..............


Kurt

I looked at the Melton-Meinl web pages and didn't see the 'Melton-Meisterwerk' instruments. Can you post a link?

[imperialbari]

http://www.meinl-weston.de/meltonbariton.htm

[ZNC Dandy]

That is a gorgeous tuba. Congratultions!

[Rick Denney]

Ah. I have seen that on some tubas, but it has never struck me as different. Is there a reason sonically that those are attached that way, or is it just that it is "what was easiest for the makers"?

When stuff was hand-made, it was probably easier to do it the old way. The picture of the 1870-something Cerveny in Bevan's book shows this approach (with a horizontal main slide, though). It also shows an even smaller bell flare than what has been pictured here.

With machine-made casings, however, making them all the same would be easier and more repeatable. That would include providing curved knuckles top and bottom for all the valves. And for tubas with vertical main slides, it would make more sense even for old stuff.

I doubt this feature has a noticeable effect on how the instrument plays or sounds.

Rick "doubting that a lot of acoustic science went into this choice" Denney