german style kaiser tuba

[Dan Schultz]

just wondering, why would the leadpipe and tuning slide pipes be at an angle different than vertically?

Your examples are really new in the grand scheme of things, dating from the 60's and 70's. It was more common for really old rotary tubas for the tubing external to the valve cluster to approach at a 45-degree angles.

This 45 degree angle is just the normal path. Take a look at the tubing BETWEEN the casings. It also comes out and enters the casings at that same angle. At some point in modern manufacturing someone figured out that ALL of the casings could be the same.

[Dan Schultz]

Somebody should have a look at the "Melton-Meisterwerk" Instruments,the connections between the valve casings on those instruments are bent,not straight pieces of tubing..............


Kurt

I looked at the Melton-Meinl web pages and didn't see the 'Melton-Meisterwerk' instruments. Can you post a link?

[imperialbari]

http://www.meinl-weston.de/meltonbariton.htm

[ZNC Dandy]

That is a gorgeous tuba. Congratultions!

[Rick Denney]

Ah. I have seen that on some tubas, but it has never struck me as different. Is there a reason sonically that those are attached that way, or is it just that it is "what was easiest for the makers"?

When stuff was hand-made, it was probably easier to do it the old way. The picture of the 1870-something Cerveny in Bevan's book shows this approach (with a horizontal main slide, though). It also shows an even smaller bell flare than what has been pictured here.

With machine-made casings, however, making them all the same would be easier and more repeatable. That would include providing curved knuckles top and bottom for all the valves. And for tubas with vertical main slides, it would make more sense even for old stuff.

I doubt this feature has a noticeable effect on how the instrument plays or sounds.

Rick "doubting that a lot of acoustic science went into this choice" Denney

[oedipoes]

How about the clockwork springs?

Are they usually worn on older horns, and if yes, can they be overhauled easily?
I know from reading on this forum about clockwork to regular springs conversions, but are they a common practice?

What would be the main reason for considering a conversion like that?
And maybe important too, what would that cost me (euro)?

Thanks,

Wim

[Rick Denney]

How about the clockwork springs?

Are they usually worn on older horns, and if yes, can they be overhauled easily?
I know from reading on this forum about clockwork to regular springs conversions, but are they a common practice?

What would be the main reason for considering a conversion like that?
And maybe important too, what would that cost me (euro)?

Thanks,

Wim

There's nothing wrong with clockwork springs, but if they break, the repair is a little more difficult than with open-wire springs. Some of the clockwork mechanisms are nicely adjustable, and many of them are very smooth. Like everything, though, they have to be in good maintenance to work properly.

They were more common on older instruments, but you could get them on newer instruments, too. B&S used them in parallel with open-wire springs, possibly based on customer request.

Rick "whose late-70's B&S F tuba has clockwork springs" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

How about the clockwork springs?

Are they usually worn on older horns, and if yes, can they be overhauled easily?
I know from reading on this forum about clockwork to regular springs conversions, but are they a common practice?

What would be the main reason for considering a conversion like that?
And maybe important too, what would that cost me (euro)?

Thanks,

Wim

Clockwork springs are referred to in engineering circles as 'constant velocity' springs.... meaning the spring pressure is pretty much the same throughout the range of motion. When they work, they do a fine job. The springs are not as easy to replace as convention torsion springs but they CAN be replaced.

The only time I've done a conversion and put on conventional springs is where the basic mechanism is damaged and would have been much trouble to replace the clock springs.

[oedipoes]

The good information keeps coming, thanks!!

Are there other reasons than cosmetic and practical ones (dirty hands), to consider re-lacquering?
Is there more oxidization (or rot) without the lacquer? Is the sound better without lacquer?

As you already guessed, I'm making a short list for taking the horn to the repair-tech when I get it, and I want to be informed the best way possible before going there.
My first goal is making the instrument technical 100% ok, before bothering about the cosmetics, it's crisis you know...
And I like the vintage look of a non-lacquered horn !

Another question, are you guys familiar with the mouthpiece receiver of old kaiser tubas?
Would my DW 2L fit it? Are there typical 'kaiser'-mouthpieces out there?

bye,

Wim (hope I get the kaiser next week !!!!!)

[Dan Schultz]

The good information keeps coming, thanks!!

Are there other reasons than cosmetic and practical ones (dirty hands), to consider re-lacquering?
Is there more oxidization (or rot) without the lacquer? Is the sound better without lacquer?

Re-lacquering is very expensive... often costing more that a horn is worth. My opinion is that raw brass looks better and is easier to maintain that scratched and burned lacquer. In time, lacquer is going to wear off, anyway. Raw brass will develop a natural patina that helps to protect it. The sound??? Well... I am sure there are some folks on this forum who can tell the difference between the sound of horns with different finishes. But, not these old tires ears! There are lots of other things that can make a difference.

As you already guessed, I'm making a short list for taking the horn to the repair-tech when I get it, and I want to be informed the best way possible before going there.
My first goal is making the instrument technical 100% ok, before bothering about the cosmetics, it's crisis you know...
And I like the vintage look of a non-lacquered horn !

Good for you! Get the mechanics straightened out first. Have any large dents removed and have the horn checked for leaks. There will always be time to do the pretty stuff.

Another question, are you guys familiar with the mouthpiece receiver of old kaiser tubas?
Would my DW 2L fit it? Are there typical 'kaiser'-mouthpieces out there?

On some of the European tubas there is no receiver. If you have a large European MP receiver, it's not likely that your DW 2L will be too small. The mouthpiece fits directly into the leadpipe and there is a sleeve over the last 1 1/2" or so of the leadpipe. In most cases, it's possible to modify the leadpipe to add a regular tuba shank receiver... which would give you a wider choice of mouthpieces to try. I've seen adapters on some horns to change from the large European shank to a regular tuba shank but can't advise you where to find one. I'm sure there are options where you are that we simply don't see much of here in the US. Maybe someone like 'Bell Trouble' or 'Klaus' can jump in and offer some real European advise.

bye,

Wim (hope I get the kaiser next week !!!!!)

[oedipoes]

ok, I feel pretty sure that this is a Bohland & Fuchs kaiser tuba.
Who can tell me some more history of that ancient brand?
Do you have pictures of other B&F Kaisers ?

Bye

[Dan Schultz]

ok, I feel pretty sure that this is a Bohland & Fuchs kaiser tuba.
Who can tell me some more history of that ancient brand?
Do you have pictures of other B&F Kaisers ?

Bye

According to Langwell's Index of Manufacturers... Bohland & Fuchs began in Graslitz in 1870. Their mark was an anchor in an oval plate. I've only seen what I thought were a couple of Bohland & Fuchs tubas... and they weren't marked. I doubt you will turn up much information about them. Here's one of the horns thought to be a Bohland & Fuchs along side a Mirafone 186.

There are more picture of this horn on my "more interesting stuff" page at thevillagetinker.com

[rocksanddirt]

That's a big horn.

[oedipoes]

Wow, the seller informed me it's on its way from Germany to Belgium!!
Can't wait until I can see it in real life.
I'm very curious if it will be in some sort of playable condition...

Fingers crossed for the packageing, but this guy has a good reputation.

I'll post a picture here for some hornporn!

bye

wim

[oedipoes]

Belltrouble,

I live in Flanders, between Bruges and Kortrijk (google maps knows where that is) about 50 kilometers near the belgian coast. So my mother tongue is dutch.
Ich spreche aber auch Deutsch, weil dass ein unserer Landesprachen ist, und wird Ihnen verstehen wann Sie mir ins Deutsch ansprechen.
Nur schreiben ist ein bisschen schwierig... aber dass haben Sie schon verstanden.
Si vous voulez, je comprends aussi le français...


Mit freundlichen Gruessen, regards

Wim

[oedipoes]

for the french horns, I agree...