Drum Corps as an artform

[GJDavis1]

Hi all,

I'd just like to open a *FRIENDLY* discussion, as I would like to know how many people in the professional music world feel about the youth activity of drum corps, specifically DCI corps. As a member of this group, and also as someone who aspires to a professional music career, I have been told by certain individuals that the music community does not consider drum corps an artform nor do they respect it. I'm just looking for input from people who may give me some insight into this opinion of corps. Now, being in a corps that has played music such as Debussy's "Claire de Lune" and Bernstein's Overture to "Candide", the notion that this is not an artform truly baffles me, however I am not as close minded as many people are, so I am open to opinions other than mine on the subject. I totally understand the dislike towards many of the not-so-great (to be polite) sounding groups of the 60's and 70's, and I believe this has much to do with the animosity towards the groups of today. Please keep it a polite discussion...I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to answer a question that has bothered me recently.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I would say don't worry about it...the "music community" has as many opinions as it does members. Just because some in that community don't respect the amount of dedication and hard work it takes to march in a top-tier DCI group shouldn't bother you. Many feel the same way about marching band.

I hear such opinions usually expressed by those who have never had any involvement in the activity. Why their opinions would have any value, I have no idea. Enjoy your time in the activity while it lasts...22 comes way too soon!

[Mike-ICR]

I have to agree with Todd. There are so many different genres out there that someone is bound to dislike at least one of them. Drum corps is probably just the one you hear most often (especially when you're playing in a corps).

the only opinion I can offer is from personal experience. I marched with a few corps in my younger days while also playing in the local orchestra, community bands and small ensembles. As time went on the rep in the other groups continued to get more and more challenging while the rep for the corps stayed at the same level. I got tired of it and stopped marching because I wasn't being challenged and felt the music was poorly written and poorly performed. Some time later someone showed me a video of a 'good' corps (I don't know who) and I realized that there was a level of Drum corps that I had never known about. The show was nicer, the music was harder and the musicians were better! That's when I developed my respect for the genre. I think many musicians are only introduced to the poorly written and performed amateur stuff and never care or have the opportunity to change their opinions.

Keep you rchin up and have fun while it lasts.

[GJDavis1]

I had a teacher tell me that if I talked to members of the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony, that they would laugh at me saying that drum corps play real music. I suppose that the teacher feels that since the music is not as it was originally written, that it is therefore not real (I still don't get that part). He is saying that he considers orchestra and band and artform, but not drum corps, because they don't play "real" music. Once I was listening to a recording of us playing the Overture to "The Barber of Seville", and he heard me listening and said "Turn that crap off, and listen to some real music!!!"

Having played "real" music in corps, and playing the parts, not watered down, and not in a different key many times, I can say that its not as if we did "easy-cheesy" arrangements of these pieces...we played the real thing, just for all brass...which in my opinion can be quite a bit more challenging than using woodwinds or strings for the runs many times.

[mikehorsford]

I had a teacher tell me that if I talked to members of the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony , that they would laugh at me saying that drum corps play real music.

It is my understanding that Chris Martin, principal trumpet of the CSO marched drum corps.

[Uncle Buck]

I had a teacher tell me that if I talked to members of the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony, that they would laugh at me saying that drum corps play real music. I suppose that the teacher feels that since the music is not as it was originally written, that it is therefore not real (I still don't get that part). He is saying that he considers orchestra and band and artform, but not drum corps, because they don't play "real" music. Once I was listening to a recording of us playing the Overture to "The Barber of Seville", and he heard me listening and said "Turn that crap off, and listen to some real music!!!"

Having played "real" music in corps, and playing the parts, not watered down, and not in a different key many times, I can say that its not as if we did "easy-cheesy" arrangements of these pieces...we played the real thing, just for all brass...which in my opinion can be quite a bit more challenging than using woodwinds or strings for the runs many times.

Your OP indicates that you are attempting to "answer a question." Looks to me like the question was already answered in your mind before you started.

My thoughts on the question is that for most of history, the question of art has been decided by economics. Something is an art form if the public is willing to support it financially. As long as Drum Corps is adequately financially backed, it will continue as an art form.

Only in recent years has that been altered by "academic" art. My opinion has changed over the past few years, but I am gradually giving less credibility to those who teach from ivory towers. If Drum Corps is a successful art form (from a performance and financial standpoint), who gives a damn what college professors call it?

(It is worth pointing out, though, that government-subsidized art is NOT unique to modern times - in the past it was just royalty, instead of the NEA, et al., who decided how to redistribute public "art money.")

[OldsRecording]

I had a teacher tell me that if I talked to members of the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony , that they would laugh at me saying that drum corps play real music.

It is my understanding that Chris Martin, principal trumpet of the CSO marched drum corps.

You are correct, Sir!

From the DCI website

Chris Martin has truly enjoyed a life in drum corps. The 30-year-old musician, who grew up in the Spirit organization and marched there in 1993 (his father, Freddy, is a true drum corps legend -- he founded Spirit and now consults with the Phantom Regiment), was recently named the principal trumpet player of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. That’s right, he’s got the most coveted gig in the brass universe -- and he’s one of us!

I think that a lot of the residual anti-drum corps sentiment dates from the days before corps 'became' a musical activity. It used to be the belief in bandrooms that drum corps would 'ruin your chops', which stems from the old days when buglers were not culled from the ranks of the musically inclined, but were essentially non-musical types who joined the organizations for 'something to do' for the Summer.

[james]

I am a professional musician. I did not march drum-corp. I am not a "fan" of drum-corp. I don't regularly go to the shows, I don't teach any clinics, I don't buy the t-shirts, etc.

That said, I think Drum Corp is a wonderful opportunity for young musicians to further their skills both musically and socially. The shows are exciting, the crowd is excited to be there, and the members of the corps are excited to be there. How many high school bands have that % of excited members? How many high school kids put their horn in the closet over summer break?

In response to those who "Denounce" drum-corp: Why? What is "real music" in their opinion? If arrangements are not real music, then I would assume they only play music in the setting it was originally intended. This means no Bach on Tuba, no Canadian Brass arrangements, no "other" versions of Pictures at an Exhibition, no orchestra "pops" concerts, etc. Get my point?

I don't care what genre it is....if you connect with others through the use of musical sounds, you're a musician. If you make a living do so, you're LUCKY. If you make a lot of money doing so, you're a genious. Doesn't matter if I like the genre or not. I hate Jane Austin novels...but she is still an author.....and a great one at that.

In response to the person asking the question: Who cares? You don't need the opinions of a bunch of tuba players to tell you something that should be "instinctive".

-James

[Mike-ICR]

[/quote]I think that a lot of the residual anti-drum corps sentiment dates from the days before corps 'became' a musical activity.[/quote]

Before 3v bugles existed corps were using 2v horns (piston/rotor or 2 pistons) that couldn't play anything using the 3rd valve combos. Music had to be written in the proper range and key for these instruments or you'd have to skip every second note! That might have played a part in the "not real music" idea.

[Davy]

I suppose that the teacher feels that since the music is not as it was originally written, that it is therefore not real (I still don't get that part). He is saying that he considers orchestra and band and artform, but not drum corps, because they don't play "real" music. Once I was listening to a recording of us playing the Overture to "The Barber of Seville", and he heard me listening and said "Turn that crap off, and listen to some real music!!!"

If that is the case, then anything rewritten for concert band, or in some cases Orchestras, isn't real music either.

I think that there is some aspects of Drum Corps that can be considered art. There is so much that can be done with music and movement, and its just a blast to watch, and to be a part of (even though I have not marched DCI)

[Matt G]

Drum corps is fine. I think the ultimate issue lies with its representatives. If you had an organization that was highly represented by teenagers and kids under 22 which were mainly male and spent a majority of the summer locked in a bus or on the floors of high school gyms, then you would have to do some "damage control" in regards to PR.

Drum corps does expose a good number of young folks to music outside the realm of "band" music and reinforces the idea of discipline. It also keeps them playing for the summer and "off the streets". Unfortunately, a lot of guys knew that their summer experience was also going to help them "socially" mature. As it is with most young people that age, they will often reference their summer conquests in an explicit manner within earshot of a band director, faculty, instructor, etc. Of course the other music students of the same age want to hear about it, and solicit this conversation. I also agree that this happens at other summer music camps, but because it is in a more "formal" setting, it seems more okay.

There is plenty of good to be found in DCI groups. As mentioned above, the current CSO principal trumpet marched drum corps. Also, let us not forget that Mike Roylance participated in a group (Futurecorps) that was essentially the same type of group, but 5-6 times a day for 5 days a week.

I dealt with players who were of various playing levels from corps groups. Some of them were excellent players, and some weren't. I will say that they were at least interested enough to try harder when they were prompted more so than a regular "band kid".

Finally a lot has to do with the venue. Most of the groups are performing in (often times high school) football stadiums. Not a "concert hall". Because of this, they are looked at as "low" art. Just as religions distinguish between those who go to tent revivals and those who attend services at the cathedral/temple/mosque/etc. only, there is a "classism" that occurs within art forms just because of the venue chosen. I have heard some superb mastery of the tuba on the sidewalk by a guy playing solid dixieland music. How would he be viewed in terms of a "tuba player"? I think most of the enlightened of us would understand that a good tuba player is a good tuba player. However, it is easy for those who feel insecure to be dismissive of one player because he is on the sidewalk instead of the concert hall. Even though they both might make the same scratch, and enjoy the same lifestyle.

DCI has evolved and will continue to do so. I think it is a testament to those who have been involved to raise the bar. It is no different than sending a child to a theater camp where they do nothing but learn a couple of plays.

[GJDavis1]

I would most definitely say that drum corps has no worse representatives than do orchestras, which have many members who are elitist in nature and, as someone else said, feel as if everything else is below them. There are many people in those groups, many that I have met personally, that have the impression that their craft is so far evolved above everything else that nothing else matters.

I knew my own personal answer to my post when I decided to make this thread, I just wanted to hear the opinions of other people. I also believe Mike Roylance marched more than just FutureCorps.

I don't quite get how drum corps is the same as sending a kid off to theater camp...the level of excellence is quite a bit higher than a high school band or theater program. So I was kind of insulted in that regard, but you do have your own opinion. I mean, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra DOES have a much higher level of excellence than drum corps does, so maybe I see part of your reasoning.

[mceuph]

I love watching DCI. It's fun, it's loud, it's energetic. I also believe it is often performed very artistically, and that the people who perform it work extremely hard, and that many of them are outstanding artists. However, I have one big argument against DCI being considered an ART. The fact is that Drum Corps is primarily a competition. Your success as a corp is based on a score. I understand that many of you who march corps may feel that the competition results are not what makes the experience special for you, and I believe you, but it doesn't change this fact.
Comparing DCI to a symphony orchestra is to me like comparing football to ballet. Both DCI and football are very accessible to the public, are based on competition and scores, require a ton of talent and hard work. Ballet is also essentially a physical activity, but requires every member of the company to have advanced training, and requires the audience member to be at least somewhat educated in the art form to truly appreciate it. Also, though ballets are critiqued, success is not based in large part on a score or number. Drum Corps competitions, though certainly on a much higher level, are essentially "Battle of the Bands." I would never want to see the 5 big orchestras in the US performing in one competition, then given scores and ratings. This is not the point of orchestras.
Though I agree that drum corps requires large amounts of dedication and can lead to positive results such as increased self-esteem, teamwork, and discipline, these are utilitarian results and do not necessarily make the argument that drum corps is artistic. These same requirements and results can be found from participating in high school football or marching band. It's true that drum corps can help your chops, but if I were trying to make a career as an orchestral performer, I can't see how it would be more beneficial to march corps for a summer than to participate in a summer orchestral institute or prepare for an audition. However, I'm also sure that you can find many examples (such as Chris Martin) of DCI vets that have gone on to great performing careers. I would also never snub my nose at DCI or those that participate in it. However, for the reasons above, I do not consider it an art.

[mikehorsford]

I love watching DCI. It's fun, it's loud, it's energetic. I also believe it is often performed very artistically, and that the people who perform it work extremely hard, and that many of them are outstanding artists. However, I have one big argument against DCI being considered an ART. The fact is that Drum Corps is primarily a competition. Your success as a corp is based on a score. I understand that many of you who march corps may feel that the competition results are not what makes the experience special for you, and I believe you, but it doesn't change this fact.

Part of the British Brass Band tradition is partaking in competitions. Do you feel that makes it less artistic?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I don't quite get how drum corps is the same as sending a kid off to theater camp...the level of excellence is quite a bit higher than a high school band or theater program.

Maybe you just haven't heard the right high school bands or gone to the right theaters. Smells like some of that "elitism" you were talking about in your first paragraph. It's pretty difficult to support such sweeping generalities, and you can't honestly say that all drum corps have a higher level of excellence (on its face, a very subjective measure, anyway) than any high school band or theater program.

I've dealt with the other side of elitism, as well...students who come back to college marching bands after marching DCI who think their excrement doesn't smell. Those students also seem to believe that the level of excellence is much higher in DCI (or, at least, the corps they marched in) than their college band and freely share that opinion. I don't blame that on the activity in general though, just those particular individuals.

[mceuph]

"Part of the British Brass Band tradition is partaking in competitions. Do you feel that makes it less artistic?"

you did not read my post carefully. I stated in the first paragraph that I thought many corps shows were done artistically, as are many brass band concerts. However, the original question was not whether DCI is "artistic." The question was whether or not it is an "art form." These are separate issues. Something can be done artistically, but not be an art. Just because something is performed at a high level, that does not make it an art. Tiger Woods' golf swing is artistic and beautiful, does that make it an art?

[GJDavis1]

I wasn't being an elitist, since literally DIRECTLY after my statement, I said that there are many ensembles at a higher level than DCI drum corps. I also did not mean that the entire drum corps activity is at a higher level than high school bands, OF COURSE ITS NOT. Only really the top 12-15 are at a higher level than the best bands in the world (and there are some amazing high school bands out there). And yes, I have seen a lot of those elitist band kids as well. It happens to most people when they first march, but I really don't believe that the elitist jerks present in orchestras have much of a right to point their fingers at those kids who do the same.

Drum corps is completely different from football for one huge reason : scores are not based off of performance alone. In football, scores are determined completely by the team's performance. In drum corps, or competitive music in general, scores are based off of OPINIONS. If football scoring was based off of opinions, I could see your reasoning.

I don't think I'm better than anyone else because of corps nor do most people who have marched more than 1 year. However, drum corps is what inspired me to become a music performance major and to pursue a professional teaching and playing career. Sure, in high school I would have loved to have gone to Interlochen or Tanglewood. I even heavily considered dropping corps to go to these places. However, I was more pleased with the life lessons and approach to tone quality and control in my corps than I believe I would have ever been taking a summer of private lessons and being in concert ensembles. Plus, I get to say that I marched 1812 Overture...that in itself is an experience I will never forget. Also, in corps, the instructors even encourage us and remind us on a constant basis to play the music as if we are sitting down in a concert hall. Being outside and in extreme heat and running around makes playing quite difficult...its always good to go back to the basics and play as if you're, well, not outside.

I love orchestra, and it is my dream to become a professional orchestral musician. I respect the best ensembles out there as much as anything. If I do this, I would generally expect the same respect back...yeah, my level of excellence isn't nearly as good as say Gene Pokorney's or Alan Baer's, but I enjoy what I do and I play good music very well while in the drum corps ensemble.

You are of course entitled to your own opinions, and I do not blame you in the slightest for having a one-sided opinion of corps...it is in fact our own fault for having overzealous members and as such has caused quite a bad misconception about our groups. Hopefully in the future, this will change.

[mceuph]

Again, the argument for me here (and what I thought this thread was originally about) was whether or not DCI was an "art form." I don't have any argument against the fun of DCI, the artistry of DCI, or the usefulness of DCI. I just don't agree if you think it's an "art." I don't see how this statement is an insult to DCI. And, if you paid any attention to the BCS selection process in the last 6 years, I would say that college football and DCI are quite similar in the process of how they are judged and placed, but that's opening a whole different can of worms!

[mikehorsford]

"Part of the British Brass Band tradition is partaking in competitions. Do you feel that makes it less artistic?"

you did not read my post carefully. I stated in the first paragraph that I thought many corps shows were done artistically, as are many brass band concerts. However, the original question was not whether DCI is "artistic." The question was whether or not it is an "art form." These are separate issues. Something can be done artistically, but not be an art. Just because something is performed at a high level, that does not make it an art. Tiger Woods' golf swing is artistic and beautiful, does that make it an art?

Good point.

[GJDavis1]

Just because something is performed at a high level, that does not make it an art. Tiger Woods' golf swing is artistic and beautiful, does that make it an art?

Does Tiger Woods play a brass instrument while swinging his club? Thats the difference...we're actually PLAYING MUSIC.