The Tubas of Choice in Germany

[BavarianFanfare]

Dear TubeNet Community:

I have heard that BB-Flat & F Tubas are the most widely used and accepted in Germany. In addition, I have heard that as far as BB-Flats are concerned, the Melton Model 25 is one of the most popular. Is there anywhere to learn and understand the musical thought and philosophy behind this approach? Also, without starting a war, if BB-Flats are fine for many European orchestras, why do some CC players stateside look at BB-Flats as student horns? If the part can be played on either key, what is the logic? Please note I have heard many different reasons that seem rather vague. I like CC horns as much as BB-Flats. I can envision an F, BB-Flat, CC, or EE-Flat depending on what we would be best for the part played. Veterans of the board, please clarify or educate me on what the thought(s) are behind this please. Because I am looking to expand into one of these other keyed tubas in the future.

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Bavarian Fanfare

[Steve Inman]

I can't comment with certainty re: the popular approach in Deutschland. I also have heard that F / BBb is the common choice.

Stateside, I believe there USED to be a trend that the "only" student level tubas were BBb (after the demise of the Eb), perhaps leading to a guilt-by-association situation. If most pro players play CC and if the only student contrabass tubas are BBb, then a certain perception will result -- even if there have always been professional quality BBb tubas available.

Why do **I** play CC instead of BBb? I've tried several BBb horns from time to time, hoping I could find one that played as easily as similar CC horns, as often the BBb version of the "same" horn (i.e. Miraphone 186) is cheaper (see the perception issue in the previous paragraph). My experience was that the CC tubas were typically a bit easier to play, especially in the upper register -- a bit more "responsive", which is albeit a somewhat vague term. Hence I have a CC (and an Eb). I suppose if you are buying your contrabass to excel in the low register, then this would suggest that BBb should be chosen -- perhaps that is the rationale.

The reason I am presently playing an Eb (and the YEB-381 specifically) is for the great low register response. I have in more recent years discovered the Miraphone Firebird F, with a reasonably easy to play low C (and I've heard the Cerveny 653-5 F plays similarly). But although I wanted to find a rotary valved F tuba, my earlier searching led me to Eb in order to get a horn that didn't require special care in the region around low C (two octaves below middle C). The Yamaha F tubas are also known for good response in this rather narrow range of "problematic" notes.

I may eventually sell my Eb for one of the "newer" generation of rotary F tubas, as there are far more notes with common fingerings between CC and F than between CC and Eb. If you find you become fond of Eb, then a BBb contrabass tuba will result in an increased number of notes with common fingerings. Or you could learn to read Eb notes pretending they are in treble clef, as a trick to gain common fingerings with a CC contrabass tuba (with Eb tuba, the treble clef notes when transposed to C will fall on the same lines/spaces as they are in bass clef -- i.e. "middle C" (transposed) is fingered "open" and is one ledger line below the staff -- same as Eb in bass clef)

There are a few thoughts for your consideration.

Cheers,

[Wyvern]

One of the German members of this forum may be able to tell you more, but I have travelled extensively in Germany and can confirm that the 'usual' tubas of choice are F and BBb. In fact for many German orchestras it is a specified requirement to play tuba in those pitches. It is all to do with culture and local sound concept. F and BBb are also used in German/Austrian bands and I believe often have two separate music parts (that is what I found playing with an Austrian band last year).

The Melton 25 is indeed a very popular tuba in Germany - the real classic German BBb. In orchestras, gold brass models are the preference. However in recent years the larger Fafner has also become highly popular (for bands, as well as orchestral use) and I would not be surprised if sales now exceed the model 25.

Regarding the playing of BBb against CC, I am in the situation of having a Cerveny Kaiser to compare to my 6/4 Neptune and my experience is that CC is generally easier to handle and more flexible, particularly for orchestral use. However nothing provides quite that broad foundation of a large BBb.

You must remember in Germany that F is the default tuba for orchestral playing with the BBb generally only being brought out for real contrabass tuba parts. Therefore the German use of their BBb is different from how American orchestral tubists use a CC.

In England it is similar, with most players still reaching for their EEb by default.

[The Big Ben]

The CC vs. BBb debate comes up frequently. Search is your friend. I imagine there is a certain amount of snobbishness going on there- "I play a CC so I'm serious about this. I'm going to be in the Philharmonic and your BBb future is in a polka band or a smelly beer hall. Yech!"

The vast majority of student models are of the BBb variety since the change from using an Eb as a student horn. In the 7th grade, when the horns are being passed out, the instrument is usually as 3v BBb instrument. If, in high school, the director decides that 20 of 25 trumpet players is fine but 2 sousaphones is bad, the director will put a souzy in the hands to the five worst trumpet players and then he has 7 sousaphones. Big market for BBb horns up to the quality of, say, a King 2341 or a Mira 186 but the CC market is much smaller. There are high end BBb models but they are outnumbered by the number of high end CC models. Why? At least in the US marketplace, the vast majority of musicians stop playing music after graduating from high school. Some play a little in college (pep band, marching band) but most college playing activities for those people could be accomplished with a BBb- just like they started with in the 7th grade. A person who wants a career in tuba in the USA needs to know all tubas but especially CC and F because that is where the demand is. More of these people can get some good out of a high end horn so the marketplace in the USA demands a greater selection of high end CC horns and fewer of high end BBb horns. There are CC student models (see the Amati web page in Czech for a list of student CC horns) but they are not offered for sale in the USA.

Search is your friend! Don't forget to look at the Old TubeNet archives which are located in the "Tips" section.

[The Big Ben]

I Or you could learn to read Eb notes pretending they are in treble clef, as a trick to gain common fingerings with a CC contrabass tuba (with Eb tuba, the treble clef notes when transposed to C will fall on the same lines/spaces as they are in bass clef -- i.e. "middle C" (transposed) is fingered "open" and is one ledger line below the staff -- same as Eb in bass clef)

Yep, that's the classic "turn a trumpet player into a tuba player by handing them an Eb tuba, have them read tuba music as treble clef and trumpet fingerings. Don't forget to add two sharps. Accidentals take a little thinking which can be a bit much for a trumpet player but can be learned" approach. I have an Amati student Eb which might just end up at my school for 5th graders to use. Last spring, I saw a 4'5" girl marching with a BBb souzy. She was gettin' it done and was having a hell of a good time but would have been so much more comfortable with a little Eeefer and a shoulder strap.

[Rick Denney]

The standard orchestral tuba in Germany has been the F. Britain was similar until Boosey and Hawkes stopped making the very small Barlow F tubas and orchestral players switched to Eb tubas of necessity. The F bass tuba was common elsewhere in Europe, too, except perhaps in France, which traditionally used a C euphonium with six valves.

In that continuum, the F bass tubas used in Germany were rather large.

The U.S. had more influence from bands, probably, and this may well have contributed to the greater popularity of Eb tubas, which were first marketed to bands.

But the first C contrabass tuba was made in Bohemia and August Helleberg was plausibly the first influential tuba player in the U.S. to use one.

I suspect that the desire for large instruments in American orchestras emerged from the popularity of commercial wind bands in the early part of the 20th Century. Playing in Sousa's band might have been thought a better gig by some than playing in an orchestra. Those instruments emerged primarily from the Saxhorn tradition, but the trend was towards larger instruments that could emulate a section of string basses or the pedal stops of the popular orchestral organs of the day. It was the latter that apparently drove Stokowski to request Donatelli to obtain a very large contrabass tuba, and the rest, as they say, is history. Had that happened in Germany, things might have turned out rather differently. I still believe that the front-action American grand orchestral tuba was originally intended to be a lap sousaphone, using a sousaphone valve section in lieu of rotary valves. Before the turn of the last century, nearly all piston tubas in America were top-action, and nearly all front-action tubas used rotary valves.

There is no musical reason for distinguishing between a Bb and a C tuba, or between an Eb and an F tuba, from the audience's perspective. Even a trained audience would not be able to reliably distinguish between reasonably sized samples of each without looking. But even large bass tubas are easier to steer than contrabass tubas, so it stands to reason that a C tuba would cover part of that distance and be a bit easier to play. I think that more than anything has fueled the trend to C tubas. Since American players tend to use the contrabass as the default instrument, versatility is a greater need. When the strategy is to use the contrabass only for works intended for it specifically (such as Wagner's tuba parts written for "Kontrabasstuba"), the instrument need not be so versatile.

Often, influential performers have a bigger effect than anything. Jonathon may sometimes feel a bit isolated in his preference for a 6/4 rotary C in the land of Eb, but Fletcher used an even bigger Holton, so there are some footprints on the path. And Mel Culbertson seems to have single-handedly shifted French practice away from the small C (tenor) tuba to the large C contrabass tuba. Germany is a bit harder to steer, perhaps.

The main reason you don't see many professional Bb tubas in the U.S. is that professionals tend not to buy them. It's not a lack of supply, but rather a lack of market. If there were Bb tuba players willing to spend close to and into five figures as C tuba players seem to be, then you would see more Fafners, etc., in use here. Since most Bb players are not willing to spend that much, the tubas they buy are built to fit with that market's price point.

Rick "who learned Bb in school primarily because plastic sousaphones don't come in C" Denney

[rocksanddirt]

I agree with Rick and some of the other comments here and would add that serviceable professional quality BBb horns are available (such as the sterotypical 186), for substantially less than the professional CC horns. So, any pro in the US who uses a BBb is not paying into the 10's of K but the same 5 to 6k that the rest of us are. And since there are many professional jobs playing things other than orchestral music the fashion choice of a CC isn't as important.

[Tuba Guy]

Don't forget to add two sharps. Accidentals take a little thinking which can be a bit much for a trumpet player but can be learned" approach.

It's actually add 3 sharps. Concert C major is the horn's A major, which typically has 3 sharps.
I actually originally came from bass clarinet (ok, soprano then bass), and since I picked up Eb, reading the treble clef is actually a little easier for me mentally than the BBb (or my Bb euph). My C is still best engrained in my head (it's what I play the most), but Eb is really easier than one would think once you figure out that B natural is 23 and E natural is 12 (I made quite a few things minor in my first week), but those are simplified when you look at it as G# or C#.
I'm still getting tripped up on B#'s, A#'s, and E#'s, but that will go away in time when I work more at those.

[Wyvern]

Jonathon may sometimes feel a bit isolated in his preference for a 6/4 rotary C in the land of Eb

I think CC is slowly gaining popularity amongst orchestral tubists in the UK (at least four of my friends now play one), but top piston Eb/BBb still rule in bands and are likely to continue with the rigid instrumentation of brass bands. Response to me playing a 6/4 CC is usually very positive. I have played with more than a dozen different orchestras in the last couple years and only one conductor has asked if I could use 'something a little smaller', while I frequently get compliments on that 'glorious sound' from other musicians.

My prediction is that in 10-20 years, the use of large CC will be the norm in British orchestras as that increasingly becomes the expected tuba tone. I also detect a weakening of the rigid use of F/BBb in German orchestras. I was certainly surprised to find a York style CC being playing for Mahler 9 in the Munich Philharmonic last year, while I understand a Yorkbrunner is now played in the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. Like for most things in this international world, the American standard will eventually prevail. For those who bemoan that, remember the sound is still largely influenced by the player, so a Brit playing a CC still tends to play in that brass band style. When I heard Andy Cresci of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra playing his Neptune, he still played it in a traditional British way making it (to me) sound rather like a Besson Sovereign EEb with 'turbo drive'

Jonathan "who believes a 6/4 CC can add a special richness to the sound of the ensemble"

[jonesbrass]

I believe the Rudy Meinl tubas are also very popular in German orchestras. Dave Glidden of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony was playing a Rudy Meinl F and 5/4 BBb the last I heard, and I believe he wasn't alone in his choice. Rudy makes very fine instruments.

[jeopardymaster]

"...while I understand a Yorkbrunner is now played in the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra."

It may be possible that the Concertgebouw is a special case. As I recall they had US-born tubists in the chair for quite a while - maybe they just got accustomed to the sound.

[Mojo workin']

A few people said that Miraphones are NOT very popular there- I think it was because of the price.

I do not understand. Aren't Miraphones some of the cheaper German tubas? Cheaper than Rudys, anyway.

[hubert]

As far as I know the reasons for this are historical.
1. The tuba (Bass-Tuba) was developped as an F-instrument around the midst of the 19th century (Berlin), soon after the invention of the valve. This F-tuba soon became the standard in orchestras all over the world. For some decades the F-tuba was THE only tuba in orchestras. For the "small"parts its is still the orchestra standard.
2. Soon thereafter Adolph Sax developped his line of saxhorns (fluegel, cornet, alto baryton, bombardon = tuba). He developped his instruments in the keys of eb and bes. Sax's instruments became the standard for the fast spreading wind orchestras, brass bands and so on. None of them became fully accepted in orchestras, EXCEPT for the tuba (in B-flat!!), because of the need of a contrabasstuba in the expanded instrumentations of Bruckner, Wagner a.o. From that time the standard for orchestras was F and Bb, for wind ensembles Eb and Bb.
3. The C-tuba was, as far as I know, an American invention of the 1930's. Because of the expanding size of orchestras and the rising of (big)bands Americans were in search for more power and projection. At first they tried to effect this by developping the BAT and recording bass (counterpart was the sousaphone instead of the helicon). In the 1930's the "Yorkish" tuba in C was developped. It has more clarity and presence compared to the (European) Bb. Till today the Bb-tuba is the preferent instrument in European orchestras (next to the F-tuba). In wind orchestras Eb and Bb still prevail. The C-tuba is gaining field, but especially in Germany the tradition of using B-tubas is strong. No wonder, Germany is THE country of tuba manufacturers and they all come from the Graslitz tradition.
4. In one of the posts was mentioned the small french C-tuba. That has to be considered as an odd instrument, that hardly was used, except for solowork. Perhaps it was a trial to develop a brass counterpart for the bassoon (in C). In France, too, the orchestral standard was/is F and Bb, the standard for wind ensembles Eb and Bb (with the C-tuba gaining fields as everywhere).
5. Related to this subject are characteristics of sound as still can be heard by comparing e.g. recordings of the greatest trumpetplayers like Maurice Andre, Winton Marsalis and Matthias Hoefs. The French sound aims at rafinesse and subtility, the American more to power with brilliance and the German to warmth and somewhat dark mildness. I know, these are generalizations, but it is what we always have learnt about this subject and what we still can hear from our best players. Problably globalization will mess up these traditions as it does with other ones as well.
6. A final related subject (perhaps with some influence to the choice of Bb or C) is the difference between the notation of parts for orchestra (in C) and for wind bands etc. (transposed notation).

Sorry, if I am wrong in one ore another aspect of this subject. But this is what over the years has come to my knowledge.

Hubert

[Matt G]

I have heard more than once that the small C tenor tuba was used by many orchestras in France well after WWII.

Also, as mentioned earlier, August Helleberg has a CC tuba made for him turn of the century or so (late 1800s early 1900s) by Sand(n)er, IIRC.

[imperialbari]

Hubert’s posting deviates so much from what I have learned until now that I will not even start listing all the matters coming out odd in my reading thereof.

That posting would have been very interesting if backed with references to credible sources. As it stands now, it is not recommended for educational purposes.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[The Big Ben]

Lawd, Klaus. You Eurpeens are so refin'd and gentilly.

Us Merkins mos' likely jes' say he full o' crap.

[Rick Denney]

3. The C-tuba was, as far as I know, an American invention of the 1930's. Because of the expanding size of orchestras and the rising of (big)bands Americans were in search for more power and projection. At first they tried to effect this by developping the BAT and recording bass (counterpart was the sousaphone instead of the helicon). In the 1930's the "Yorkish" tuba in C was developped. It has more clarity and presence compared to the (European) Bb. Till today the Bb-tuba is the preferent instrument in European orchestras (next to the F-tuba). In wind orchestras Eb and Bb still prevail. The C-tuba is gaining field, but especially in Germany the tradition of using B-tubas is strong. No wonder, Germany is THE country of tuba manufacturers and they all come from the Graslitz tradition.
4. In one of the posts was mentioned the small french C-tuba. That has to be considered as an odd instrument, that hardly was used, except for solowork. Perhaps it was a trial to develop a brass counterpart for the bassoon (in C). In France, too, the orchestral standard was/is F and Bb, the standard for wind ensembles Eb and Bb (with the C-tuba gaining fields as everywhere).

We are all recalling what we have heard, but I think the evidence contradicts a couple of the points you have made.

The Wieprecht F tuba was originally marketed to Prussian Guard bands, not to orchestras. Orchestras continued to use ophicleides for some time after Moritz built that first Basstuba for Wieprecht in 1836. It was much later that the tuba came to replace the ophicleide, and by the time that occured, the Sax instruments were already widely available. Thus, in places where the Sax instruments were more effectively marketed, top-action Perinet-valve instruments dominated, and most of these were in Eb, as you mentioned. (An exception is the Barlow tuba in England, which was still a top-action Perinet-valve saxhorn, but had five valves and was pitched in F.) In America, few pictures of orchestras are available from the critical time, but one picture I have seen of the Boston Symphony shows a top-action Eb tuba, ala Henry Distin, solidly in the saxhorn tradition.

Cerveny apparently made the first C contrabass tuba, probably very early on (1840's or 1850's), using rotary valves. That tuba clearly descended in concept from the Wieprecht Basstuba, which used Berlinerpumpen (more like rotary valves than Perinet valves even if they push in and out). August Helleberg was pictured using what I recall was a C rotary tuba made by Sander around the turn of the last century. Thus, the C tuba predates the 1930's by a large margin. Helleburg used that instrument in American orchestras (including New York and Chicago) in the 1880's and 1890's, and also in Sousa's band around the turn of the last century. I cannot confirm that the Sander was a C, so my memory may be flawed on this point. He did purchase a Bb contrabass from Conn in 1910, based on a Monster Bb Bass but with rotary valves, but that may have been for use in the bands in which he was playing by that time. He and his two sons were pictured with rotary Conn C tubas in the 1906-1908 period. Conn did make a 48J recording tuba for Helleberg in 1926, definitely pitched in C. There is a Conn C tuba pictured in the Geib tuba method book which was apparently a tuba used by Helleberg (Helleberg was Geib's teacher before the turn of the last century). Helleberg was certainly the most influential tuba player in America during that period.

These bits of evidence lead me to believe that in America, the Eb saxhorn followed the ophicleide, and the C rotary tuba followed the Eb saxhorn, at least in one influential case.

William Bell was using C tubas in American orchestras starting in 1924, when, at age 22, he won the audition for the Cincinnati SO using a C tuba (which he borrowed, having played Bb tubas in a number of leading professional bands up until that time). Apparently, by 1924, the C tuba was the expected orchestral tuba in the U.S., even with a conductor such as Fritz Reiner (who was holding the audition), else Bell would not have felt the need to borrow a C tuba and spend all the previous night memorizing excerpts on it (as reported by Harvey Phillips). He continued to use C tubas in orchestra settings for the rest of his life, and he was certainly the most influential orchestral tuba player in the period between Helleberg and Jacobs.

Thus, Jacobs was following a tradition, not establishing one, with his famous use of the York C tuba.

Back to the Boston Symphony. Kilton Vinal Smith used an F tuba exclusively, starting in Boston in 1933.

On the subject of the small French C tuba, Bevan has written that it was the standard orchestral tuba in France of old. "Of old" might be a very long time ago--perhaps as early as before World War II. The dominance of Mel Culbertson in the French tuba scene has apparently led to the use of a large C contrabass in addition to an F tuba. That story was recounted here, but I don't recall by whom.

I don't know why the Bb contrabass became the standard for Germany, but your notion that the availability of a saxhorn in Bb predating a (popular) C contrabass is intriguing. By the time the tuba replaced the ophicleide, the saxhorn would certainly have been an available option, even in Germany.

Rick "wishing the historical gap between ophicleide and Helleberg in American orchestras wasn't so empty" Denney

[J.c. Sherman]

I might also point out that CC tubas were in common use in Spain and Catalonia as well in the late 19th c.

J.c.S.