Vintage Conn BBb w Rotary Valves?

[Outawind]

Greetings - this is my first post to this forum, commensurate with a return to amateur tuba playing following a lay-off of about twelve years. I'll begin where I left off, with an unanswered question re one of my BBb instruments, an old Conn, with vital stats as follows:

AA) Mfg Year - 1927-1928, based on SN
BB) Bell Dia - 19"
CC) Standing Height - 36"
DD) Weight - Approx 25 lbs
EE) Bore - Approx 0.8" (all valves).
FF) Valves - Four, rotary design.

Picture of the horn should be attached.

It's the rotary valves that are a puzzlement to me. Perhaps it's lack of knowledge on my part, but I have seen no other Conn tuba of this era with rotary valves. Two (presumably) knowledgeable individuals once told me that it might be a "Helleberg Horn". The story goes that Helleberg disliked piston valves, so Conn obliged by providing him and his sons with rotary valve horns during their tenure with Sousa. Nice story, but unsubstantiated as of yet.

My goal is to determine the pedigree of the horn, which may have some impact on the amount of $$$ that I intend to invest in the instrument. The horn plays, but tuning, tone quality on some notes, and valve regulation are issues.

So, any comments, insight, direction, or knowledge from anyone regarding this instrument would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance -

[UDELBR]

Here's Fred Geib holding the CC version of your instrument.

[Bandmaster]

I found two photos of August Hellegerg with a rotory tuba and neither look like your tuba. But that doesn't mean it is not something made for Helleberg or a copy of same. Very cool horn though, good luck with it.

[eupher61]

Here's the one I used to own, I'd never seen another Conn rotor tuba aside from the Geib and Helleberg eras. The wraps really aren't close between yours and mine. Wow!

Steve Dillon guesstimated that mine (c. 1923) was a Jumbo Custom. The valves may have been of German make,possible Schmidt? They loaded from the front, because there is absolutely no room in the back to access the valve body. Steve mentioned a possible connection with Fred Geib, too, so Uncle Beer has a bit of credibility. (naw, he really can't have...)

It was horribly out of tune with itself, had a tremendous, beautiful, velvety sound. The pitch made it almost unusable in the bottom octave and a half or so. I fought it for a few years, then made a trade. It's now in the hands of a notable collector.

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solo dixie Conn BBb.jpg

conn & B&S.jpg

solo dixie Conn BBb.jpg

[Alex C]

The spatulas are exactly the same as a era Geib tuba, so I the vintage will be in that time period. There are only two people who can tell you what you've got without doubt and only one of them posts on this board.

My guess, and it is only a guess, is close to UncleBeer but I don't believe it's exactly the same model as Geib's CC Even allowing for the differences between CC and BBb, I don't believe it is the same model, the valve tubing wraps are too different.

Check your PMs

[Outawind]

Thanks to all who took the time to provide input - I know a lot more already than I did yesterday.

To respond to a few points of discussion:

AA) I took some additional detailed photos and would be pleased to accept The Elephant' s offer to "host the post".

BB) The valve cluster shown on Eupher61's horn is, I believe, an exact duplicate of the front-loading valves on my horn. The valves are where this horn came off the track when I first saw it approx 30 years ago. The rear bearings are integral with the valve housings, so if the bearings wear, extensive re-work is then required. (I probably just told you folks something that you already know.) The bearings had enlarged and worn oblong, so the rotors were banging around inside the housings.

I will continue making inquiries and will post any additional info of interest if obtained.

Thanks again.

[kingconn]

I read that Warren Deck played a rotary valve Conn for a short while.
mike

[eupher61]

IIRC, "my" horn (ustabemyhorn, at least) had a double slide for the third valve, and that tube came out toward the bell and was at the far right in playing position, as shown in the partial picture.

Purely speculation, I'd say this definitely points toward the Custom made label. The wrap on Outawind's is nothing like my memory of "mine". I'll work on getting another photo.

[Rick Denney]

I found two photos of August Hellegerg with a rotory tuba and neither look like your tuba. But that doesn't mean it is not something made for Helleberg or a copy of same. Very cool horn though, good luck with it.

To add to what others have said, Conn made a number of rotary tubas for Helleberg, his two sons, and for Geib (who was Helleberg's student). He was pictured with a Monster Bb Bass with rotary valves, which is your first picture, which was made around 1910. The lower picture was actually a picture with his two sons, both of whom were displaying similar instruments (but without the low-pitch conversion slide.) That photo was made around 1907.

Conn also made the 48J, which was a rotary recording tuba in C for Helleberg, and that was in about 1924 or so. So, even in the late 20's, rotary valves were not outside their experience. King was making rotary instruments for Bell about the same time (I wonder if Bell went with King because they gave him a better endorsement deal--Conn was already loaded with endorsers--pure speculation on my part).

Rick "suspecting that the Hellebergs got new tubas fairly frequently" Denney

[windshieldbug]

The valve cluster shown on Eupher61's horn is, I believe, an exact duplicate of the front-loading valves on my horn. The valves are where this horn came off the track when I first saw it approx 30 years ago. The rear bearings are integral with the valve housings, so if the bearings wear, extensive re-work is then required

This is exactly the way that early American rotary valves were made, particularly during the civil war.

[Ace]

I like these posts about players and instruments from a long-ago era. I bought my new car because it has lots of space to haul my tubas and bass trombone; and I wonder if Helleberg, et al, did the same thing back in 1910. What type vehicle would have appealed to them?

http://americas-classic-cars.com/Year/1910.htm" target="_blank

[windshieldbug]

I like these posts about players and instruments from a long-ago era. I bought my new car because it has lots of space to haul my tubas and bass trombone; and I wonder if Helleberg, et al, did the same thing back in 1910. What type vehicle would have appealed to them?

[jeopardymaster]

The second of Bandmaster's Helleberg photos portrays a horn I have played and sat next to - or its twin. Back when we were in school together at CCM, John Tabeling bought one from Sam Green. I don't know the provenance before or after; John sold it in the early '80's.

Noteworthy aspects - valves were string action, very fast. Posts were on the bottoms, I recall. Valve paddles were kind of skinny. 4th valve was 2 whole steps (same as 2-3). Bottom line g felt funky to me - the resistance kind of dropped out, but otherwise the response was terrific. Intonation was a little quirky, but definitely workable. John sounded great on it.

I'm no expert on the mechanical aspects of tubas, I just play 'em. But the appearance of the horn in the original poster's photo differ so much from what I recall from John's horn that I have to wonder whether the valveset is original.

[imperialbari]

I like these posts about players and instruments from a long-ago era. I bought my new car because it has lots of space to haul my tubas and bass trombone; and I wonder if Helleberg, et al, did the same thing back in 1910. What type vehicle would have appealed to them?

Which piece was he going to re-hearse?

K

[windshieldbug]

Which piece was he going to re-hearse?

Beethoven: Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathétique), tempo grave

[ken k]

Which piece was he going to re-hearse?

Beethoven: Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathétique), tempo grave

you guys kill me.....

[ken k]

Intereseting to note that it seems the rotary vs. piston and CC vs. BBb wars have been going on for over a century!

k