Feeling torn between keys

[sloan]

Picking up on your stated goal, and weaving in a bit of bloke's opinion...

Can anyone think of a player who has actually WON a symphony seat who could not pick up a brand new tuba in Bnat, spend one month in the woodshed, and play to performance standard? [edited to make sense]

FIRST, become a professional level player

SECOND, sample enough instruments to develop a strong *personal* opinion on which one you like best

...

LAST, get out a tuner to find out what key it's in.

(and then perhaps worry about satin silver vs. distressed lacquer)

[bort]

To the original poster: You mentioned you only have an F tuba right now? What model?

[bort]

Oh yeah! Duh, that's it in his avatar. Oops...

[jmerring]

I've said this before and it bears repeating. NO ONE in an audience could tell the difference in sound between BBb and CC. That is my opinion, of course. Only a true tubaphile (new word?) could have the vaguest idea of a difference. OKAY, FLame away!

[Plugo]

is like my tuba professor used to say, a Bb is a Bb whether you play a C or BBb horn, only the fingering is the one that changes. is the players ability that is important.

the most important thing is to learn to play the tuba first, then you can go out there choose the best tuba for the job.

[k001k47]

Oh yeah! Duh, that's it in his avatar. Oops...

Yup! It does have it's intonation quirks, but I'm willing to make that compromise considering the sound I get on it; I'd do so for any horn. (anyone have an older alex CC for sale?)

To the original poster: You mentioned you only have an F tuba right now? What model?

I believe he has the 6 valve Cerveny that Marty and Wade each owned.

Bob seems to be interested in this Harmonia without ever playing it.
I'll sell it to you... for one million dollars

[MartyNeilan]

Oh yeah! Duh, that's it in his avatar. Oops...

Yup! It does have it's intonation quirks, but I'm willing to make that compromise considering the sound I get on it; I'd do so for any horn. (anyone have an older alex CC for sale?)

To the original poster: You mentioned you only have an F tuba right now? What model?

I believe he has the 6 valve Cerveny that Marty and Wade each owned.

Bob seems to be interested in this Harmonia without ever playing it.
I'll sell it to you... for one million dollars

I'll buy it back for 10 trillion Zimbabwean dollars.

[adam0408]

Just be a *tuba* player. Does it really matter?

My goal has always been to have at least one *GOOD* tuba.

Many people can speak several languages fluently. We shouldn't consider it that much of a challenge to mash different buttons when playing three different lengths of tubas.

Solid advice.

Its not hard to learn a new key of horn once you've done it. Mastering a new horn is a completely different problem altogether.

Also, I agree with the statement that it takes more than a year to become completely comfortable with the Bb to C switch.

If you picked up a Bb horn and it sounded great to you, approach that feeling with a bit of skepticism. You may be fooling yourself because of preconceived ideas about the horn and key (it feels familiar and a bit like "home")

Ultimately it comes down to how you feel about a particular horn, what you want to do with it, and what your teachers think.

If you have the extraodinary drive to succeed and practice the right things diligently, it won't really matter what key of horn you play.

[Wyvern]

I once took my Melton Eb to dep with an orchestra to play Elgar 2 and in a break in rehearsal I had the conductor comment to me on how good my C tuba sounded!!!

No-one, but other tuba players (and knowledgeable ones at that) know what key of tuba you are playing. All that really matters to other people is the sound that comes out of the bell.

[k001k47]

I once took my Melton Eb to dep with an orchestra to play Elgar 2 and in a break in rehearsal I had the conductor comment to me on how good my C tuba sounded!!!

No-one, but other tuba players (and knowledgeable ones at that) know what key of tuba you are playing. All that really matters to other people is the sound that comes out of the bell.

Those mw Eb's are monsters... I don't blame him for mistaking it for a CC; I wish I owned one.
Speaking of large Eb tubas... does anyone have a York Monster 4v front action Eb they can take to TMEA for me to play on?

[k001k47]

I played Mark Howle's the other day at the Mississippi Lion's Band finals. It had four front action and a smallish Mirafone rotor added as a 5th. It had very minor tuning issues that were easy to adjust and a low Bb that was only a tiny bit odd. In short, I offered to buy it on the spot! No dice, however.

Keep in mind that many of these tubas have very bad pitch. This was an excellent quintet tuba and could have held its own in orchestra in nearly anything that a 4/4 CC could cover.

Great horn! And rare, too!

wonder if mark is traveling to tmea
If I liked the way one of these monsters played, I wouldn't mind trading up for it.

[oedipoes]

Whichever way you go, good luck on your search and let us know what you results are with copious amounts of bugle pornography!

You mean "hornography" obviously...

[Tuba Guy]

IMHO, I think that it's the musician that makes the music/tuba not the key it's built in. The question I have is; What are the pro's and con's of a CC vs. BBb?

Well, you will never get a job if you play on a BBb tuba. They do a pre-screening before orchestral auditions, and anyone whose open bugle produces a Bb is automatically kicked out. Doesn't matter if they're the most qualified person there, only C instruments are allowed to have spots in orchestras.
Seriously, though (that was sarcasm), there is no real difference other than the fingers you press down for each note.
I use my C most of the time (my BBb has been banned from Wind Ensemble for being too big...which I suppose is a compliment in a way), and only use my Bb for some orchestral stuff (I found out that it has the best Bydlo G# of any tuba I own...and is also the largest by far...figure that one out?). It all comes down to what horn feels befst for you.
Theoretically, they would also say that a BBb is easier for band music because that music tends to be more in flat keys, while orchestral music tends to lean toward sharp keys, but a competent player (or even me!) can play almost any key on either (I say almost because getting into 6 or 7 sharps on my Eb pretty much stops me from rehearsing that piece)

[Wyvern]

3. C tubas provide shorter tubing that is easier to make speak. Mostly baloney.

I would not say this is true in the high register. Up above the staff CC tubas will usually use less tubing than BBb and therefore (generally) speak easier. The tuba part in the orchestra much more often venues into that high register than in a band. I wonder if that is why CC are more popular for orchestral playing? In Germany where BBb are more usually played, an F tuba would be the default tuba and therefore this would not be an issue.

[NDSPTuba]

I have a theory for the whole CC speaks easier than a BBb "feeling". It has to do with where you are in the partials. On Horn, what made it so difficult to play cleanly was the fact that we normally played so high up in the partials that the notes where getting closer and closer together. I frequently demonstrated playing a major scale without pushing down any fingers. Using the Bb side of the horn in difficult technical passages in the mid range made then speak easier because we effectively where playing in the lower partials of the Bb side and there wasn't as much risk of missing notes as they where further apart. If you follow me. With CC/BBb even though it is only a whole step higher up, that is a whole step difference for all the partials. I would think it would make more a difference the higher you played and the closer the partials get.

[Rick Denney]

3. C tubas provide shorter tubing that is easier to make speak. Mostly baloney.

I would not say this is true in the high register.

That was the "mostly" part. Up there, the partials are as close together as the whole step between the two bugles, and so the C tuba will often play the same note on a lower partial with fewer valves. I recall drawing up a list of the notes that were thus affected, and in the "cash" register, there were maybe half a dozen notes so affected. In return, the Bb tuba for other notes uses less valve tubing than the C to achieve the required length, and most people believe that using less valve tubing is better. Seems a bit of a wash to me, or at least not nearly as significant as some portray. Here's that post:

viewtopic.php?p=217635#p217635

As to the preponderance of notes above the staff in orchestral music--maybe. In my case, when the notes go above the staff enough to matter, I will be using an F tuba. The reason is that most composers writing tubas parts in that range were writing for a bass tuba, not a contrabass tuba. A large C might be easier to manage up there than a large Bb, but it will still sound like a large contrabass.

Of course, if there's no overall disadvantage to using a Bb, then there is certainly no overall disadvantage to using a C. I just think that the differences between individual instruments probably count as much or more.

Rick "who has played lots of lumbering, out-of-tune C tubas, too" Denney

[TubaRay]

Best summary I have ever read, cutting through all the damn BS.

There's a reason he is known as the "Resident Genius."

[Allen]

..., we haven't had a summary in a while.
...
...
So, I can find no reason for an amateur to switch to C unless he wants to (which is a good and sufficient reason all by itself). ...

Thanks, Rick for the great summary. It should get its own page on this site (along with dissertations on lacquer versus plated versus raw brass, and rotary versus piston valves.

I'm an amateur and now I play a CC. When I decided to come back to playing tuba and therefore needed a horn, I was trying out BBb tubas. There was this CC tuba sitting there, and I tried it. As they say, it picked me out. Learning another set of fingerings wasn't a big deal -- it sure is a lot simpler than learing woodwind fingerings! So, perhaps we should add another item to Rick's list of reasons: You switch to C because the horn wants you to.

Cheers,
Allen

[Plugo]

I think 20 years ago making a switch to CC was the only way to go. it was really hard to find a good BBb tuba, at least a professional model. There were a handfull of tubas available. mostly miraphones.


my professor really did not want me to make the switch. he advice me to keep my BBb horn , but i felt i had to switch. now looking back, i should have followed his advice. especially now with some good BBb tubas available. switching to CC did not improve my playing ability. i still have to play the same notes that you play on CC tubas. Playing in sharps keys with a BBb tuba was not a problem for me. My range was the same as my BBb tuba. so switching to CC doesnt make you a better player or guarantees a spot in professional orquestra.

having said that, my advice is to learn how to play the tuba first , then look for a tuba that matches the sound in your head. if you are ready made the switch, then keep on working on whatever tuba you have. once you out there in the real world, then take a look at your playing ability and decide whether to choose another tuba or keep it what you have.

sometimes trying a new tuba gives you the idea that your ability improves with the new tuba . but after a couples days it goes back to our reality. the same goes for dating. you always want what is out there.

that is why, i never been in the search for a new CC. i really happy with my Rudy. it is not the perfect horn but it matches the sound in my head.