Impressions of the Willson 3100 BBb

[Liberty Mo]

I searched the archives and there is very little actual review of this horn other than references to its size and weight.

Has anyone had the chance to play this model and if so, what are your impresssions. How would it compare to the VMI 3301?

Looking to purchase a large BBb and am contemplating this model.

Thanks.

[Rick Denney]

I searched the archives and there is very little actual review of this horn other than references to its size and weight.

Has anyone had the chance to play this model and if so, what are your impresssions. How would it compare to the VMI 3301?

Looking to purchase a large BBb and am contemplating this model.

Thanks.

I've played several of them, both before and after I had the Holton. (And, yes, learning to play the Holton did change my impression of the Willson.)

I find that the Willson makes a huge sound, but not a sound that I feel connected to. It seems distant. I think it would take a performer with real insight to his product out front to manage. I suspect it takes a lot of work to really make it do what you want. Playing the Holton helped my airflow enough so that the air requirements of the Willson no longer really bothered me, but the Holton feels like an extension of me and the Willson has always felt like someone else was holding it.

I also have an ergonomic problem with the instrument. I can find nothing useful to do with my left hand--there's just no place where it rests naturally such that it can help balance the instrument. The last time I said this, I got roundly roasted by those who owned them, but I tried again at this year's Army Conference and came away with the same impression.

The 3301 is not on the same planet. Or, it's more like a moon that would orbit around a planet, with the Willson being the planet. The 3301 is a 4/4 instrument with a more compact sound than the Willson. It's also a lot easier to hold and play, at least for me.

You might consider a Miraphone 1291, which to me has some of the size of the Willson without being as much work.

Rick "whose opinion is worth what you just paid for it" Denney

[Liberty Mo]

Oberloh's has had a 3100 for quite a while now for $6000 that might be worth looking into-

http://www.oberloh.com/sales/tubas.htm

That's the one that caught my attention. There are a limited number of large piston BBb options to be had. However a trip to Seattle would be a long haul from Kansas City.

I was hoping to do my homework before I decide to invest in the trip.

There just isn't much information about this horn. To my knowledge, there are not any available to play nearby.

[Rick Denney]

There are a limited number of large piston BBb options to be had.

It might help for you to identify your requirements. You list one above: It must be large. If that's a true requirement, then you can eliminate the 3301. It is not large--it's just a plain 4/4 piston tuba, no bigger than a Miraphone 186. It's a fine tuba, but it's not a grand orchestral tuba.

And if you require pistons, then you can eliminate some potential candidates such as the Fafner.

That leaves few choices. The 1291 is what I would call a 5/4 piston tuba. It's bigger than the 3301, but not as big as the Willson.

If it's a 6/4 you want, then you have your choice of various antiques, an old Holton if you can find a good one, an old Conn, a Gronitz PBK or some other one-off, a Nirschl (I played one at the Custom booth last month that was very nice--and expensive), or a Willson. Kanstul makes one with largish outer branches and a narrow bore that's probably worth your consideration--it's bigger than a 3301 by a ways, but not as large as a Willson. Lee Stofer sells those, and Iowa is closer to Kansas than is Seattle.

So, what are your requirements?

Rick "trying to help" Denney

[Liberty Mo]

Rick,
Thanks for the help. I had a King 2341 for some time and enjoyed it tremendously, but I found the small bore and the horn itself was not sufficient to carry a 80-100 piece band as the sold tuba. Thus I am looking for a larger instrument. I referenced a VMI 3301, as it was a horn in the "front action piston upright bell" mold that was larger than the 2341 that I had played. I understand that the Wilson is much larger.

In terms of my wants, I would like something that is a large (larger than the VMI, King) BBb with an upright bell. I would love a 6/4 King 2341, but it doesn’t exist.

I had the pleasure of sampling a Conn 24J, but did not enjoy the location of the valves in the upright position, their short action, nor the massive bell. The horn was very "woofy" for me as well. For various reasons, I have eliminated recording bell options such as the Reynolds/Martin/Conns.

To my knowledge, that leaves, as you said, the Fafner/Wilson/Gronitz or an old Holton/York/Martin type. The older horns are difficult to find, and when they appear, they seem to go at a high premium. Frank Ortega had a nice York for sale, but I fear that I may have been too late.

The Gronitz PBK seems to be a bigger mystery than the Wilson. The Fafner was a very nice horn, but is priced well above the Wilson and I have only seen one used. I have kept my eye on both the Miraphone 191 and 1291 and may go that route, but wanted to leave no stone unturned.

I also considered some of Cerveny's Kaiser offerings, but have not been able to locate any to try.

I found the Wilson on Oberloh’s website, but was intrigued, hoping to get some opinions. It's price point also made it worth considering.

[Rick Denney]

Thanks for the help. I had a King 2341 for some time and enjoyed it tremendously, but I found the small bore and the horn itself was not sufficient to carry a 80-100 piece band as the sold tuba. Thus I am looking for a larger instrument. I referenced a VMI 3301, as it was a horn in the "front action piston upright bell" mold that was larger than the 2341 that I had played. I understand that the Wilson is much larger.

In terms of my wants, I would like something that is a large (larger than the VMI, King) BBb with an upright bell. I would love a 6/4 King 2341, but it doesn’t exist.

The 3100 might just be the tuba for you, though I myself would probably prefer a Fafner. I'm surprised that the Fafner (not the hand-made 195/2, but the regular 195) prices are higher than the Willson, I thought it was the reverse. I haven't looked at prices in a couple of years, though.

Yes, old, good Holtons go for a premium. There is a reason for this.

The Willson is probably priced well enough so that even if it doesn't work out, you'll probably not lose much if you decided to go another direction in the future. There's no denying that it's a good tuba. Lots of pros did lots of great work using the CC version (the 3050). My issues with it may not translate to you.

Rick "who didn't realize at first that this was a bird-in-hand situation" Denney

[Liberty Mo]

Rick,
As always thanks for your opinion. I've been in no rush to make a decision. Just trying to sample and obtain as much information as possible before I make a choice.

The Oberloh 3100 is priced at a point, as you said, that would allow me to recoup my investment should it not work out. I just can't convince myself to travel halfway across the country.

[ztuba]

the low Eb on that 3100 is awesome! Play prokofiev 5 on it.

[sloan]

Rick,
Thanks for the help. I had a King 2341 for some time and enjoyed it tremendously, but I found the small bore and the horn itself was not sufficient to carry a 80-100 piece band as the sold tuba. Thus I am looking for a larger instrument. I referenced a VMI 3301, as it was a horn in the "front action piston upright bell" mold that was larger than the 2341 that I had played.

In my opinion, the 3301 does not PLAY larger than a 2341.

but, I agree that a 2341 would need someone VERY talented behind the mouthpiece to cover a 90-piece band.

I'm left wondering - how do you manage to gather together 90 players (that's a pretty big band) and only have 1 tuba? Maybe you don't need a bigger tuba - you need a section mate?

[Matt G]

Dillon's has this:



Priced "okay" at $5K. If you are interested, a phone call might be a good idea.

A new Fafner is $9K, a new 1291 is $8K.

In regards to the Willson, they will play well, but you, the player, won't know about it. That is a bit of an exageration, but they are tall and heavy brass and don't seem to give a lot of feedback to the player. They sound fine out front. On the 3050s I have played, intonation was manageable, and I would figure the 3100 to be fairly consistent with that.

The Conn that Dillon's has is a toss up. It probably sounds fantastic. The open partial series is possibly a bit skewed. Call or email Matt Walter's and he'll give you a good idea on it's strengths and weaknesses from his persepctive.

Considering how few Fafner's turn over, you'd more than likely have to buy new. 1291's and 191's pop up occasionaly.

Finally, send an email to Joe S. (bloke) he might know of something?

[MartyNeilan]

the horn itself was not sufficient to carry a 80-100 piece band as the sold tuba.
...
For various reasons, I have eliminated recording bell options such as the Reynolds/Martin/Conns.

Were I in your shoes, I would consider a Conn 2xJ or Martin 6/4 bellfront the perfect horn for the job. You obviously seem to know what you are doing on the instrument, so you will get a nice big clean sound straight out to the audience. One ot the reasons big recording bell tubas died out was because uprights did a much better job covering sloppy playing.
Maybe not your first choice, but a 6/4 bellfront would get the job done while keeping a rich sound without overblowing or edging out.
If you have to "work too hard" with almost any other configuration, the tone won't be the same.

My opinion, FWIW.

[Matt G]

In my opinion, the 3301 does not PLAY larger than a 2341.

I also agree with this.

IMHO, there is something lacking in the design of the VMI 3301. On paper it sounds great. The intonation is on par, but it takes too much effort for not enough reward. Whan I had the ability, I played the 2341 and thought it to be a great 4/4. Works well with various levels of input, and can get out very well when needed. I would even go so far as to say a Conn 5J would be a better alternative in terms of trying to project in a large ensemble. The Conn projects very well, but a lot of folks don't quite "get" the sound (although I liked it).

To further expand on Prof. Sloan's comment, a 90 piece band with one regular tuba is asking for trouble. Even at the amateur level with a professional player on big equipment. A fairly good rule is to divide the number of members by 25 and that is a good approximation for tuba players needed. In this case it amounts to nearly 4 players. i would suggest not one more, but two more, if they can be found, simply for the fact that the foundation will not only sound better, but if the players are in tune, the band's pitch center will also improve, simply because they can better hear the fundamental of the ensemble.

[tofu]

--

[cambrook]

When I visited Tubadome last September I briefly tried a large piston BBb, I'm pretty sure it was a prototype piston Fafner. It was a fantastic tuba, very easy to play and it had a really good sound. It would be well worth contacting Bill Gibson to find out more about it.

All the best,

Cam

[Liberty Mo]

In my opinion, the 3301 does not PLAY larger than a 2341.

To further expand on Prof. Sloan's comment, a 90 piece band with one regular tuba is asking for trouble. Even at the amateur level with a professional player on big equipment. A fairly good rule is to divide the number of members by 25 and that is a good approximation for tuba players needed. In this case it amounts to nearly 4 players. i would suggest not one more, but two more, if they can be found, simply for the fact that the foundation will not only sound better, but if the players are in tune, the band's pitch center will also improve, simply because they can better hear the fundamental of the ensemble.

As with many community bands, you have to work with what you have. We are in the midst of a transition, having lost a couple of players to college and moving. While I hope to have company in the section in the near future, at the present time, it's not the case.

I appreciate everyone's comments, several very good suggestions. Having lurked through Tubenet for almost 8 years now, the shared knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

To answer a few questions. I have spoken with a few people who have played the big Conn at Dillon's, and it was suggested by all 3 of them that the instrument sounded good, but took a lot of work in terms of its intonation. Baltimore Brass had a similar horn in silver late last year, but it sold before my East Coast connection could make his way for a play test.

In regards to the recording bell tubas, I had an old style King 2341, and cursed having to haul around the two cases. I also had difficulty hearing the instrument. I have had the same experience with the two Conn 2xJs with recording and upright bells that I have played. I also do not care for the upright valves. I enjoy the liberty of slide adjustments while playing, and I am not sure if this would be possible with a large recording bell horn.

There are a few options as Rick pointed out as well as a fairly steady stream of Miraphones that appear. I was just curious about the big Wilson having never come across one and because the price point was very good.

Again, thanks to all the suggestions.

[Liberty Mo]

Didn't Meinl Weston at some point make BBb slides for the 2165? If so, how well did this work? I

[oedipoes]

I played the 3100BBb in frankfurt.
It was the best horn for me in the <10 000 EUR range, best piston valve horn overall.

Go try one.

Wim

[Rick Denney]

One instrument I've forgotten that ought to be on any list, though it might be harder to find, is a 5/4 Rudolf Meinl. The 6/4 instrument is a little on the big side, and you'll need native bearers, a large vehicle, and a healthy checkbook. But the 5/4 is as big as a Fafner and in the same size class as so-called 6/4 tubas.

You have to wait for used examples to pop up, but when they do, the prices are often quite reasonable.

Here's a 5/4 CC next to my Holton:



Rick "thinking the Power Sound might help with balancing a large ensemble" Denney

[WakinAZ]

Custom has had a 5/4 Rudi BBb on their eBay store for a while: http://cgi.ebay.com/Rudi-Meinl-BBb-Tuba ... 240%3A1318

The Willson on Oberloh's site may not be a 3100; weren't they exclusively in silver? Back when these horns were more popular, several TubeNetters opined that the BBb 3100 played better than the 3050 CC.

Eric "who wonders if the 3100 is even being produced any longer" L.

[GC]

Willson tubas come in lacquer or silver. You may be thinking about Hirsbrunner; I think they do silver only.