Alexander tuning rod

[Tom]

This is a photo of the tuning rod that was installed on my Alexander 163 when I got it.

The tuning rod actually consisted of several pieces. First, note brace that was installed between the leadpipe and the first valve slide tube to keep the rod aligned. There were a couple of small brass nuts that were soldered on the valve tubing right under the linkage arms also to keep the rod aligned. You can see one on the first valve and one on the 4th valve in the photo. The end of the rod was squared off and attached to the tuning slide with a lyre holder. The lyre holder was soldered to the tuning slide and the bottom of the rod (squared off end) could slide in to it. Once the lyre screw was tightened up, you were good to go. The handle of the rod is a part of a trombone handslide with trumpet valve buttons soldered on the ends. The black sleve on the rod was actually not there when I got it, but rather some white plastic that helped keep the rod for rubbing/binding on the alignment rings.

The entire setup was removable since the handle would unscrew from the nuts (seen in the photo between the added brace and the first valve tubing). The second part of the rod could then be removed from the lyre holder and the whole thing could slide out.

I thought the rod was well built with a clever design and that it was quite functional, though I ultimately had it completely removed (along with the real monsterweights). In fact, I think this is among the best tuning rod designs I have seen and would probably have something like this built if I ever wanted another one.

[MikeS]

Here are a couple shots of my 163. It had the rod when I bought it. In fact, these are the shots the previous owner sent me when I was horn shopping. I never felt the rod was worth the bother, but I hope it works for you. The rod screws into the fitting on the tuning slide so it's easy to put on or remove. It differs a bit from the one above since the guide is a brass tube rather than a series of rings.

[cjk]

After feeling inspired to practice lately, (no, I'm not ill), I've basically decided I need a tuning rod for my Alex. There are two damned notes that the tuba and I do not agree on.

....

What two notes do you and your alex disagree on?


10ish years ago, I had a Cerveny Piggy that had a self centering T-handle trigger on the main tuning slide. It also had a fifth valve that was a Mirafone part. The trigger was very well designed and worked great (which was pretty cool, since it was needed).

I bet somebody else on here has seen that pig.

[eupher61]

A friend had a Kaiser Cerveny CC with a counteracting rod--hinged so that when he pulled up, the slide went out, and then had a spring action returning. It was easily adjustable for basic tuning pitch adjustment, as the pachy noted is important.

Anyone have a photo of Ron Bishop's rig? THAT was a great piece of equipment.

[Jobey Wilson]

I can't seem to find a picture that shows the rod well, but I had Jim Becker at Osmun Music in Arlington, MA fabricate and install a rod to the main tuning slide of my old 4 valve Alex; he connected it to a "thumb-kicker," which was obviously convenient since I had no 5th valve...I'll keep looking for old photos.

[Jobey Wilson]

Yea, Bishop's Alex has some garden tool or something...crazy, but it works well. Once also played his Kaiser Alex in a lesson...WOW!! Hell of a sound!! (though, the intonation was a little quirkier than usual...still fun!!)

[cjk]

What two notes do you and your alex disagree on?

The most serious disagreements are on C# & D in the staff... D is passable with 4th valve...
NOTHING gets C# right....
12 - flat
3 - flat
15 - flat
123 - flat
25 - sharp

Upon examination of the photos provided and my horn, my fifth valve slide might be a problem.....

RC

What interval is your fifth valve?

[cjk]

If 4 "sorta works" for D, does 2+4 not also "sorta work" for C#?

(I'm guessing not, but you didn't mention it)

Is your 6th partial g flat?

how about 1+3+4 or 2+4+5 for C# ? (what should be sharp fingerings off the likely flat 7th partial)


What, you thought you wouldn't have to use "Alex fingerings" for your Alex?

[jeopardymaster]

I sold this magnificent sounding, admittedly tempermental instrument to tuben so I am familiar with his issue. I didn't have trouble with the c#, but had to push in on d. I also found open bottom line g to be sharp.

I suppose why different folks experience the same horn differently, or perceive it differently, is worth another thread.

I had considered installing a whammy bar as well. But here was my concern: I needed to be able to SHORTEN the tube from time to time as well as lengthen it. That would mean cutting the horn somewhere, perhaps as much as an inch overall, installing the bar, and then pushing to lengthen or pulling to shorten, as appropriate.

I defer to the experts on the risks posed by such surgery. But it seems the responsible thing to point it out.

Also, you may benefit from the design Mike Thornton had installed on his 163. Not sure who did it. As I recall, he has some extra hardware - hinges, screws, springs, I dunno - so as to pre-set the push/pull distances and make it return to 0 on its own.

[bububassboner]

Here is a thought for you Alex owners,

A friend of mine has a 163 BBb which had similar problems. He installed an OLDER style (smaller pipe) 186 pipe on it. That alex now is very manageable and needs little adjustment.

Just a thought...

[cjk]

Here is a thought for you Alex owners,

A friend of mine has a 163 BBb which had similar problems. He installed an OLDER style (smaller pipe) 186 pipe on it. That alex now is very manageable and needs little adjustment.

Just a thought...

How did he connect a .778 inch pipe to a .815 inch hole?

[bububassboner]

I believe he used dent balls to expand the taper of the last few inches of the pipe to make it work. The end of the pipe is almost straight as it is. He is very good with tapers and is working on a Marzan/York project for me right now. (Horn dorn to come later)

[Sean Greene]

Here are a couple shots of my 163.

Hey Mike - That is one Good Lookin' horn.

I hope it's treating you well. There are many times when I regret selling it - But I'm glad it found a good home!

Sean

[MikeS]

When I began my Alexander journey I had some very useful correspondence with Sande McMorran. He was familiar with my horn and recommended cutting the first and second valve slides a bit. I had the first valve slide cut enough that I could play a D in the staff in tune with the slide all the way in. I then had a ring soldered to the top of the slide for comfort and a bit more reach. I also had about 1/2" taken off the second valve slide.

I can get a very respectable C# 1-2 with a first valve slide push. I also tune the fourth valve slide so that 1-4 gives a good low F. I think this is pretty common among folk with four-valve 163's. With that tuning 2-4 also works, for me, for C#. Anyway, play with a tuner and get an idea of how much you would have to take off the first slide to get D in tune (or just the C# 1-2 which should take a little less of a cut). Then consider what your longest pulls are. If you would have enough slide left after the cut, then I think it's worth considering.

[jeopardymaster]

I can only speak from memory, which is a lot cloudier now than it was when I posted that. Someone must know what happened to his horn. He was in the DC area when he passed away. I don't even know who did the work - sorry.

[MackBrass]

After feeling inspired to practice lately, (no, I'm not ill), I've basically decided I need a tuning rod for my Alex. There are two damned notes that the tuba and I do not agree on.

I wonder if anyone might have a picture of the tuning push rod other guys have had installed on their Alex's so I can have something to show Rich Ita before he does it. (Rich could certainly figure out something effective and elegant, but still)

Thanks,
RC
(wants no lip from Bloke about 'out-of-tune tubas' and such....... )

If you have a typical alex CC as it sounds like you do, cut about 1 inch off the first valve tuning slide. Most of the older alex CC tubas are actually BBb, the change in the dog leg and tuning main slide puts the open harmonics in CC. The real issue is that alexander did very little with trimming down the slides for the valves. If you have a open g that is sharp or in tune than I would expect that your open e is good as well. If this is the case then you have an exceptional alex and I would love to make you an offer to take it off your hands.

[tubamuphone]

Ted Cox has one of Mike Thornton's old Alexander tubas and if I'm not mistaken, Tim Buzbee has the other one...? I'm pretty sure that Ted's does NOT have any tuning slide rod parts installed on it, not sure about Tim's.

I've had Mike Sanders' gold brass Alexander 163 CC for about 15 years now and it has the guides for a tuning slide rod but no other parts.

On a non-Alexander note...Ed Jones (Ft. Worth Symphony) has one of the original Neptune tubas and I believe that he has a rod on his main slide. Also, Don Little has a very unique setup on his Holton 345 CC. It only moves the main slide out but it's spring loaded, so the tuning slide pops back to the original position.

I feel your frustration about pitchy notes though, you have to mash down some crazy fingerings and pull a lot of slides, but nothing sounds like an Alex!

Jeff

[Ted Cox]

Actually, the Alex you mention tubamuphone was owned by Tim when he was playing in Iceland. I was told it was one of Mike Thornton's Alex's, which is a big reason I bought it without playing it first. It does not have a main tuning slide mechanism. It doesn't need one as the overall pitch of the horn is quite excellent. This Alex is from 1980 and someone at some point added a fifth valve (2 whole steps) and did quite a nice job. I'm assuming Mike made the addition at some point. Having the fifth valve on the right thumb frees up my left hand to adjust the first valve slide, but only for about three notes - second space C# being one of those notes.
Ted

[jeopardymaster]

One of the last Frank Simon Band gigs I played with Mike, he mentioned that his backup Alex had been a 4 valve horn. It was a pivotal conversation because I was struggling over selling the Alex that tuben now owns versus selling my 184, in order to afford the Gnagey I was trying out. Mike told me "NEVER sell that little Mirafone. Are you nuts?" I'm recalling that he'd had the 5th valve added to his backup at a time when he anticipated having a lot of work done on his main horn, which needed some patches and valve work. Anyhow, I think that is when he had the whammy bar installed as well. He had also tried playing with one of those tone belt thingies, ordered a Yorkbrunner from Custom (a dog, I thought), bought a Willson, then returned to that great old Alex. He always sounded best on it anyway.

[Lee Stofer]

Just last week, a customer brought me a goldbrass Alex 163, that he told me he had bought from Baltimore Brass, and had been owned by Tom McGrady before that. On the phone, he had told me that the instrument had a wonderful sound and response overall, but lousy intonation. After working approximately 50 hours on that tuba last week, I can tell you that the main tuning slide tubes were not soldered well, and the receiver was defective in shape, and can only assume that this was factory-original condition. There were other problems that needed addressing, and although I fabricated and installed a main tuning slide rod assembly, the horn really had little need of it after the horn it self was repaired.