US Navy Band Euphonium Audition

[J Stowe]

Perhaps this is the Navy Band's way of stimulating the economy.

That's really gonna piss people off, but I thought it was funny enough to share with those who might share my humor. Keep practicing if you really have the desire; if you don't, then perhaps you should be doing something else anyway. There are tons of people losing their jobs and homes, and if you are fortunate enough to have time to spend playing an instruments and getting enjoyment out of it, you should be thankful. These are hard times, and there are bad people doing dumb things with the average person's money. Be glad that you have safety. And for those of you on the forum that may be endanger of losing your job, my thoughts and prayers go out to you.

[WoodSheddin]

Perhaps I'll start working on some observations based on what I assume happened.

From speaking to people at various bands who vote on these committees, the basic ideas which come out are that no one showed perfection. It is rare for a perfect audition, but it does happen on occasion. When it does the choice is much easier.

But as we are all human and things happen, most times everyone who plays has strengths and weaknesses. The committee has to listen and decide if the weaknesses or slip ups can be tolerated when balanced with the excellence heard. Unless someone shows up with something REALLY special the committee can get into gridlock.

I am not sure how the various members of the committee voted on the euphonium audition, but I can tell you that it is not uncommon whatsoever for many on the committee who vote to hire someone and feel strongly about it. Yet, no one is offered the job because a few other people, perhaps with more weight to their vote, don't feel comfortable.

I have mixed feelings about the Navy Band's history of not hiring on the first round. it is very common there.

At least that is MY personal take on things and not speaking with any particular authority.

Also remember perspective. Many people who question why a fantastic musician student isn't hired have to remember that you might be hearing them playing in an ensemble of 50 people where MAYBE 3-5 of those in the ensemble play at a level where they are seriously competitive in the professional world. So in that context that musician might be outstanding. But dropping that same outstanding player in a Special Band might end up with a mediocre result.

[BopEuph]

I'd like to see what happens if one or two of the players currently in the Navy band were to show up and audition as well (as long as it's a close-curtain audition). If these players don't get "hired", then we can safely call shenanigans. I've heard some story about a second trombone spot opening in a major orchestra (don't recall which one or if this story is even true), and the principal player got sick of the committee constantly turning players away. So he auditioned as well, and he was turned down, too! It can sometimes show the committee that they're having unfair expectations.

Nick

[BopEuph]

If what I said happens, and one or two guys from the band itself audition, and are "hired", I would gladly retract my statement.

You're right, part of that reason they didn't accept anybody is none of our business. Part. The rest? Well, what is it that each player is apparently consistently lacking? I haven't auditioned for the Navy band, but if I was really trying, and this kept coming about, all I can do is keep shedding and hope whatever it is that I lacked will improve. But I would never really know what it is they were looking for, so it's still just a guessing game, isn't it?

I played in an pops orchestra backing up George Benson last week. The other bassist on the gig was a great player, and I am weak with a bow; I'm a jazz guy. So this guy took me under his wing. He gave me so many good pieces of information during the sound check and the gig. One of which is this: don't spend more than $500 for an audition, unless you have a very good shot at being hired. Frankly, don't audition for the NY Phil unless you know you're going to at least get to finals. He was actually encouraging me to look towards a pro orchestra job because he thinks I have what it takes, so he talked to me about it.

Now, he was speaking in relation to the double bass, where there is probably a dozen or more paying spots within a 50 mile radius from anybody reading this post. It's a little more difficult to say this for euphonium, given the lack of paid positions and the abundance of great players who could take the spot. But, I would change it around a little to this: if I'm going to spend all that money flying to DC, stay in a hotel, buy food, rental car, whatever, I would like to know that I didn't waste my money over and over while they are searching for the "right" player. Yes, it's a great experience, and could even be seen as a vacation. Honestly, I just couldn't afford it. I don't have much money, else I wouldn't be looking for a job, right? I bet there are also very qualified players that didn't go to the audition simply because of the prohibitive cost. Maybe someone that went to the first audition date that could have been hired on the second one didn't go because they spent all their money going to DC last time. We'll never know.

You can say that just because these players we think are great may not be, and you might be right. But I don't believe it. Have you heard some of the younger players lately? Some are great, some are not so great. Some of the great ones deserve that spot, and the tragedy is there's only one opening at the moment. Plus, certain things CAN be learned throughout the gig.

There's at LEAST a dozen or two players in this country that would do a fine job in that band. It's hard enough with those odds, not to mention this added dimension on top of it.

Nick

[WoodSheddin]

This thread has gone beyond stupid. If that insults you then GOOD.

There really is no need to insult people.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

The fact that no one was hired in this last audition has nothing to do with the people who auditioned "not being good enough." It has everything to do with the fact that the audition committee, on that day, didn't agree on a candidate bringing everything they wanted to the table. That's why the idea of current members of the ensemble auditioning to "prove something" is sheer folly...it's just not that simple, folks.

It seems logical to ask the question "well, what is it they want so that we can prepare for that?"...but it's not that simple, either. The variables change each time an audition comes up, so there's no absolute answer. Heck, even if the committee were asked to tell the people auditioning ahead of time what it was they were looking for, they would probably have a difficult time articulating it with one voice. As Wade explained earlier, it only takes one committee member who is uncertain about a candidate to dismiss him/her from consideration. And, contrary to popular opinion, there aren't players who are "so good" that they would win an audition every time without exception. Welcome to the real world, where performances and expectations and objectives change from audition to audition.

Those of you who have participated in high-level music competitions understand this phenomenon. How many of you have felt like you played well enough to win a competition but were disappointed and then looked for answers in the judges comments (often, only to find positive remarks)? I accompanied a trombonist last weekend at a prestigious music competition in Tulsa last weekend - after he played his piece in the finals, I felt sure that he would win, but he came in third (of three in the finals). The other finalists were flute players, and of course very fine musicians as well. I'll posit that, depending on the judges, the final results could have been in any order possible among the three finalists...what does that say about the process? I wouldn't say it's unfair, simply that it's highly subjective.

[pgym]

Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

It is the epitome of insanity AND ARROGANCE for unsuccessful audition candidates to show up again and again at auditions NOT having corrected the flaws that caused them to be passed over the last time around and expect the committee to lower its standards when past experience demonstrates that they won't.

Matt Guilford: What is the best piece of advice you can give to an aspiring young bass trombonist?

Doug Yeo: Know who the standard is. When I retire from the Boston Symphony someday and John Doe who has just graduated from Podunk University School of Music wants to audition for my seat, who is his competition? The other people who come to take the audition? No. His competition is me. Douglas Yeo. That's right. And I won't even play a note at the audition.

That's because I have set the standard for the bass trombone chair of the Boston Symphony. When I leave, the BSO will want to hire someone who will hopefully have many of the same capabilities I had but who will also bring new things to the chair. That's how the orchestra will get better over time, by finding people to replace retiring people who can help bring the orchestra to a new level. If the audition committee doesn't hear someone they think can fulfill that role in the bass trombone chair as compared to what they've already had, they won't hire anyone and will hold another audition and will continue holding auditions until they find the right person. Just because you're the best player at an audition doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean you'll be hired. You have to play against the standard and that's the person whose chair you are auditioning for. If you understand that, you'll know what you should be working on. If you think that's "unfair" then you will be flipping hamburgers, not playing in a major symphony orchestra because you don't understand the standard.

An organization is only as good as its weakest member. It's true in music; it's true in sports; it's true in business. The bottom line is, either a candidate is up to snuff or he/she isn't. No matter how good the person who plays best at an audition is, if he or she isn't up to the standard, he or she is not good enough, and it is an insult to the dedication and professionalism of every other member of the ensemble who surpassed that standard for ANYONE to expect an audition committee to lower its standards. Were a committee to do that, they might as well issue a press release announcing they're becoming a second-rate outfit.

I haven't auditioned for the Navy band, but if I was really trying, and this kept coming about, all I can do is keep shedding and hope whatever it is that I lacked will improve. But I would never really know what it is they were looking for, so it's still just a guessing game, isn't it?

At this stage of the game, if you're still so musically self-unaware that you have to guess what the problems are that are holding you back and need someone else to point them out to you, you have no business auditioning for a position with a premier ensemble in the first place.

This is a premier professional ensemble we're talking about. NOBODY is going, nor should they be expected, to hold your hand and coach you through what needs to be done in order to play your part on ANY given piece in a manner appropriate not only to where your part sits in the larger musical texture, but also in a manner that fits with the band's characteristic sound and style. If you DON'T know how and where an excerpt fits within the overall work from which it is extracted, and what the sound the band and the section are aiming for in that particular passage, you haven't done the requisite homework to be able to take, much less pass, the audition.

There are literally dozens of posts by committee members of various auditions—here, on other low brass forums, and on personal websites—outlining what audition committees look for and why the committees ended up not offering the position to anyone. While none of those posts address the Navy Band euph audition directly, it is extremely probable, if not a certainty, that the Navy Band audition committee's reasons are similar to those of other committees, and it is 100% guaran-dam-teed that the problems they identify are the things your teachers have been harping on from the day you first picked up your instrument.

Here are a few for starters:

recent no-hire auditions

Coast Guard Audition– Principal Trombone

Audition Musings [Part 1]

Audition Musings [Part 2!]

Audition Observations

Audition Musings (different from above)

2007 USABTEC Inter-Service Euphonium Panel.

LET THOSE WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR, HEAR.

Pgym

[tubashaman2]

.

[tubashaman2]

.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Honestly, what would you have the Navy band say? Each audition is different, and there is no "correct" answer.

Playing with excellent intonation, exquisite rhythmic control, and a great sound merely get you "in the running" for a job. The rest is subjective and changes each time an audition is held. All a candidate can do is play their best and be themselves (musically speaking, that is). Second-guessing the audition committee is a fruitless endeavor.

I doubt anyone you talk to that has won an audition will say that they played "perfectly" the day of the finals. I know that I have won some competitions with notable flaws and also have failed to advance sometimes when I played as well as I possibly could (still not perfect - just better than other times when I didn't advance). I'm sure many of you have experienced the same thing. It's a SUBJECTIVE business we're discussing - trying to determine the "best" player from a pool of excellent players.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

My favorite thing would see if Gene Pokorny would try out for the Detroit Symphony and not be accepted as a winner, if that would happen then we all know we are doomed

But you still don't get it. It's entirely possible (maybe even probable) that Mr. Pokorny wouldn't win another audition. I'm not specifically addressing him or his playing, but there seems to be a belief that professionals who have won their auditions and have big-name jobs are suddenly elevated to a new infallibility of playing, and that they never make mistakes or have less-than-their-best days. It's simply not true.

Even more important to point out is the fact that a person on any given committee might not agree with an interpretation or a tempo selected, might not like a particular sound or style, or might (gasp!) not even make the "right" decision when it comes down to crunch time. We're talking about human beings and their perceptions here, not points in a basketball game or dollars in a bank account.

Such an experiment, or the one proposed in the military band system, would prove nothing.

[windshieldbug]

Consider too, the size of the potential pool to choose from. Aside from the military, potential jobs playing euphonium full time are VERY few and far between, yet every US college/conservatory band that I hear seems to have no problem stocking their euphonium section. They keep graduating, so the pool is just getting bigger, way out of proportion to the number of jobs.

I'm with Wade, the committee doesn't owe anybody anything. A band suffers while every opening exists, and I will assume just like orchestras, the director is a major part of the committee. In fact, when the orchestra committees that I've served on HAVEN'T hired anyone, it's often the Music Director pulling rank. But if the committee doesn't hear what they want at that moment in time, remember, the ranks are just getting deeper behind them.

[tubashaman2]

.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

And Todd, sorry I have to disagree, but I feel the time Pokorny has been playing in the orchestra he has gotten better, way better, plus to start Pokorny was a damn solid player, there is a reason he won the job.

And how does that disagree with anything I wrote? I hope you're not implying that I was at all critical of Mr. Pokorny's playing or that I suggested that his playing has regressed since he won his big audition. In fact, I went out of my way to say I wasn't commenting on his ability as a player, just that such ability doesn't "guarantee" anything in an audition setting. Do you disagree with that general point? if not, what is it that you disagree with?

Not saying Gene would win it, but he should at least advance to finals, any of the big 5 Orchestra players should be able to advance without a doubt.

So, which is it? Are you of the "best player always wins the job crowd" or not? Of course players with the level of excellence that Mr. Pokorny (or any of the "Big 5" players ) possesses are going to advance to the finals most of the time...that's not the point here.

To restate: I'm asserting that there is an undefinable aspect to each and every audition that is not static but is different in each setting. No one on a committee knows ahead of time what it is...they know it if/when they hear it. Discuss.

[WoodSheddin]

Well I guess I need to apologize for my total and complete honesty, but when BIG names, and they are big names (Sean Chisham and Dave Werden), are calling for some insight, maybe we should stop being so hard headed and listen to these REAL professionals.

The insight I would like to see may not be exactly the same as you are after. I would find it helpful if some generic points could be communicated directly from some members of the band. But that is not their policy. My main gripe isn't so much the silence but the way some musicians are treated when they publicly post something as benign as the audition date. The Navy Band is very strict.

And BTW, I did happen to speak to someone in the know about this audition and will just state it the way I heard it from the source.

No one played well.

And this person was sorely disappointed. I trust this person's opinion.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Thank you for taking the time to bring that information to light, Sean. It is both enlightening and surprising at the same time. Wow.

[dwerden]

Geeeeee, relax a little!

Since my name has been used in some of the discussion above, let me pull a couple quotes from the post I made about this:

"I think it would be instructive for someone from the audition panel of the U.S. Navy Band to do a post with a summary/overview of the audition."
...
"But I'm also sure the committee did not hear something it needed to hear..."

I'm sorry if my tone was not clear, but I am not trying to say I have a right to the information or that I am starting some kind of quest to extract it. I was hoping to coax some information out of the band for what I think are good reasons, but I am very confident they have good reasons for not supplying it.

In planning to write my own post at a later time, I believed I could provide some insight based on auditions in general (especially military auditions). But there have already been some great posts/links/discussion of many of the issues I was thinking about covering. I'll probably still give it a shot, but I don't expect to have time for a while (tax day is coming!).

Anyway, it's understandable that people are frustrated at not knowing more, especially those who took part. But the Navy band are nice folks and I'm sure they would discuss more if they could.

In lieu of having more details from the source, just take an honest look at your abilities. Yes, there are random factors with every audition, so that they are not 100% predictable. But I'll bet most participants could look honestly at their efforts and realize where they could work harder. For example, we all have a tendency to practice the things we already do well. It's an ego boost, I suppose. It's really, really tough to break out of that and face up to some icky parts of our playing (even if they are only "relatively" icky at this very high level). I could personally name several things I should spend a lot more time on. (But I won't name them here )

Are there things that a teacher suggested you should work on that you didn't really follow up on? Do you ever hear a player do a lick and think, "I wish I could do it like that!"

How many participants got hold of recordings of the Navy Band and really listened to them? What makes that band different from the other? (They all have their own sound.) How do the euphoniums "work" in the ensemble? Etc.

There are a couple good places to start. And better luck next time!!

[tubashaman2]

.

[tubashaman2]

.

[mclaugh]

You ignore that fact that the forum administrator, Sean Chisham and David Werden want to know as well. Still you go on with YOUR close minded attitude.

Well I guess I need to apologize for my total and complete honesty, but when BIG names, and they are big names (Sean Chisham and Dave Werden), are calling for some insight, maybe we should stop being so hard headed and listen to these REAL professionals.

The insight I would like to see may not be exactly the same as you are after. I would find it helpful if some generic points could be communicated directly from some members of the band. But that is not their policy. My main gripe isn't so much the silence but the way some musicians are treated when they publicly post something as benign as the audition date. The Navy Band is very strict.

And BTW, I did happen to speak to someone in the know about this audition and will just state it the way I heard it from the source.

No one played well.

And this person was sorely disappointed. I trust this person's opinion.

Geeeeee, relax a little!

Since my name has been used in some of the discussion above, let me pull a couple quotes from the post I made about this:

"I think it would be instructive for someone from the audition panel of the U.S. Navy Band to do a post with a summary/overview of the audition."
...
"But I'm also sure the committee did not hear something it needed to hear..."

I'm sorry if my tone was not clear, but I am not trying to say I have a right to the information or that I am starting some kind of quest to extract it. I was hoping to coax some information out of the band for what I think are good reasons, but I am very confident they have good reasons for not supplying it.

Damn, contraeuph, how's that taste? Gettin' whacked upside the head like that by two REAL professionals gotta hurt. Bet that's gonna leave a mark.