F tuba--which one might be right

[Rick Denney]

Good point Rick, Remember I am looking for an ALL AROUND F, but as in real life i would normally just do mainly solo and quintet stuff on the F but if I ever did land a orch. gig......preferably rotary valves but I am open to pistons, solid low range and scale, overall good response. Basically everything my 180F lacks, though my Plog miniature sounds pretty good minus the resistance, but that piece is all mid-high range hahaha.

How is the tone/sound and the low range on the 2182. Buzbee is a beast, he can play that low range on any horn as he did on the meador piece, I do not hear much about this horn though.

I can happily use my B&S 3100 for quintet or large ensemble, and I would happily play solos on it, if I could play them well enough to ponder such potential humiliation. I compared both my old Symphonie and my newer 3099, and found both of them very similar yet not the same. Their similarity emerged when I compared them to other F tubas, including most of your consideration list. The Petrouschka was the only one that could have given them any challenge, but I didn't compare them side by side. When I selected the Symphonie, which was several years ago, I did do a side-by-side comparison with a lot of F tubas, with the intent being to find one that 1.) had that fat, interesting German F tuba sound, and 2.) could be heard above the din of the Elephant Room at the Army Conference. I tested a PT-10, 621, MW 2182, Willson 3200R, Miraphone 181, and the prototype of the Miraphone 281, plus some others, although maybe not all at the same time. The B&S projected as well as the best of them, and had the sound to boot. The 3200R was very good. The 621 (which played very well and similar to mine) could not be heard. The piston 182 didn't move me, but I can't really say why. It helped that the old Symphonie was in my price range; the Willson definitely was not.

I've played the piston Willson 3200, and it seems to me a lovely alternative to an 822, if that's the sort of F tuba you want. I have heard excellent solo work on them, but they still sound much more like a contrabass than an F tuba, and don't really interest me because of that. There's no denying their sheer playability, though.

Rick "really liking the current Miraphone F tubas but still in the old-style B&S camp" Denney

[tubaben]

I play a 2182 and I love the thing. The low range is surprisingly in-tune. It's really easy to just blow the **** out of notes down there, but if you can keep it in control, it sounds good. The intonation in general is great on this horn. It's a great solo horn -- the pistons are smaller and faster than most mw's, so it's easy to get around. There are some really nice tone colors in that horn too.

[bort]

Rarely have I and any of my (all wise) mentors agreed on "what is an ideal tuba".

You mean they didn't recommend building a 5 valve CC helicon?

(But seriously, good advice.)

[J.c. Sherman]

First, Bloke is dead on:

"WAIT to buy another F tuba until YOU DO NOT FEEL AS THOUGH YOU NEED TO ASK YOUR TEACHER. That way, you'll end up with something that YOU like.

"Rarely have I and any of my (all wise) mentors agreed on 'what is an ideal tuba'."

Second, if you're not happy with your 180, and yet want to keep it for the reasons you mention, I think it would be unlikely any newer instrument would make you happy. The 180 is an excellent instrument (from someone who considers himself principally a bass tubist). The intonation is squirly, sure. But if you find it "difficult", I think you're not quite ready to move on to another, which will have it's own challenges.

That said...

Few agree with me, but the YFB-621 is the closest to the "do all" F that I've found... ideal for nothing, but capable of anything. But the Big Yammy is the closest to a do-all _tuba_ you'll find in F, though the monster MW tubas make good arguments too. The miraphone 180, the early B&S, and the Alexs are all F tubas which are born and bred to be just that - bass tubas. They are smaller than CCs because they're not trying to be CCs.

End of sermon

J.c.S.

[bort]

Good points, JC. It's been discussed here as well how tubas like the 180 are considered tiny now, but only in comparison to the 6/4 F tubas that seem to have taken over the world. The 4/4 sized F tubas were the norm years and years ago.

I think we all get a little spoiled by the point-and-shoot nature of our CC and BBb tubas, and the hope for a similar F tuba. Collectively, it seems like there is a little frustration that there is no "186" or "188" of F tubas (at least not at the same price-point or level of availability).

[tubashaman2]

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[tubashaman2]

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[TMurphy]

Ok...

I know you stated your preference for F tubas (when Bob mentioned a few Eb horns), but, since you said you are looking for a more versatile instrument, I would urge you to really consider a few Eb horns. The MW you mentioned has a great reputation, though I have not played it personally. Last time I was at Dillon's, I got to play on a Firebird, and I thought it was a nice horn. Then I played the StarLight. For me, the StarLight was a killer horn. As I understand the NorStar is a bit bigger than the StarLight, it might be worth looking into.

Of course, I should mention that I played the StarLight while my horn was getting a chem clean. I sat there, really falling for that horn....until my 983 came out. I tooted a few notes on it, and went, "oh yeah...that's why I own this horn. " I use the 983 as my only horn, have played it in large wind bands, quintets, quartets...the only ensemble I've never played in with it is an orchestra, only because I don't play in any orchestras. I do remember back in college one of the graduate students in our studio using his 983 for certain rep with the orchestra, and sounding great.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't let the, "I'm an F tuba guy" mentality limit your search. There are some great Eb tubas out there, that may very well do what you're looking for, as well as some that won't. Same thing for F tubas. Find the bass tuba that meets your needs, regardless of what pitch the bugle is tuned to.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

So, I guess the "wait until you don't need to ask" option (very good advice, BTW) wasn't to your liking? Why the hurry? You already have an F tuba and some good experience on it...you are in good shape to start graduate studies. After reading the entire thread, I'm still missing a good reason for buying a second F tuba at this stage...you certainly won't need one for graduate school.

For an anecdotal related example, I'd never even played on a F tuba before going to Kansas for graduate school...Dr. Watson got me started studying it in my first semester with an adequate school instrument. It took me about a month to get comfortable with the F fingerings, and just to few days to get used to a borrowed Yamaha (thanks, Jarrod) when I started playing F exclusively in the wind ensemble.

Why not save the money you would spend on a third tuba for those unexpected graduate school expenses? Please believe me when I tell you "you'll be glad you did." Just redouble your practice effort and learn to sound as good as you can on the equipment you already have.

If you absolutely must buy another F, buy the YFB-822. They are outstanding and are not "too big" if you have any sensitivity as a player. Perhaps learning to sound "delicate" on a larger instrument would be a good skill to add to your bag of tricks (it really isn't that hard). Besides, the Yamaha would do very well the things that you say your 180 isn't very good at doing...isn't that the point?

P.S. - there are conductors in the world who are knowledgeable enough and (respectfully) anal enough to ask the tubist in their orchestra for a specific key of instrument? You've really heard of more than one example of this, specifically for the Wagner? I wouldn't have thought it possible...

[tubashaman2]

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[Rick Denney]

I just thought of 2 tubas no one have mentioned

The piston and rotary models of the Hirsburnner F tubas, I NEVER hear anything or know of anyone who plays on one who has commented, I know on one of the "Roger Bobo Plays tuba" a guy plays on a rotary HB but that is all I know

Nobody mentioned them because you said you didn't have that much money to spend. The last one I tried was actually marvelous (to the extent I could tell in ten minutes), but even used it was $11,000. If you want to hear one played well, go find a copy of Cantuballada with Hans Nickel.

The early B&S instruments that everyone seems to think are small sell in the sub-$5000 range. Hint: They are not small. If you need something bigger, you'll be just as well off with a small C. They are much less expensive than the tubas on your list precisely because people think they are small. I can't imagine anyone thinking a B&S 3100 or Symphonie is small, but then suggest a Meinl-West 2182 or 182 as an alternative. Huh? I'll give you a hint as to one person who wanted my old Symphonie, except that he found another one before I decided to sell mine: Norm Pearson. That's not the only name I could drop. Don't take it off your list until you've tried one.

I very much understand your issue with quintet music, a lot of which was written more for contrabass than bass tuba. My first F was a four-valve Musica, which was actually quite decent on and above the staff. But I couldn't use it for quintet music--there just weren't enough options below the staff. Many (not all) of the big boys will use a C for quintet for that reason.

But, as Joe said, if you can't find the one you want, wait. And if you can't afford the one you want, wait. Learn how to cover those parts on C, without sounding like a tubby big contrabass.

Rick "who would play Meistersinger on F without feeling guilty, but who isn't betting grocery money on it" Denney

[tubashaman2]

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[TexTuba]

And on a side note, alot of people don't think directors and conductors who are not lowbrass members know the difference between a BBb and CC tuba, or a contrabass and bass, I have seen it on here before a long long time ago. Conductor here is a low reed/low string player (doubler) as his instruments, but in conducting class he teaches in the transposition section of the class about the keys of tubas and the differences and such, before I got a CC and a F he taught this, conductors are learning this stuff and what is being used on certain pieces and such.

Again thanks for the information.

James, honestly, if you didn't play tuba and all you had knowledge of about different keyed tubas was from a conducting class, do you really think you could pick out a CC from a BBb? An Eb from an F? Besides, I don't even know why tuba would be brought up in much detail in a transposition class since the music doesn't transpose, the musician simply uses different fingerings. People who think they know about tuba from a class are full of crap. I've taken a strings method class, does that mean I can walk up to a violinist and tell them about their instrument with any authority? Does this mean I am now qualified to tell them what to use? Yeah, I thought so.....

[bort]

A few more thoughts here, more or less non-sequitir:

-- Statistically, professional players are over-represented on this board. Most major cities only have a handful of people who play for money, if that. Some of the more active members of this board are pro's, but we can't forget the long, tough, improbably roads they had to travel to their current positions, experience, and levels of comfort.

-- Tuba players, for a variety of reasons, will go through several tubas over the years. Some pro's pick one tuba, and stick with it forever. Others change and adjust their equipment to be on the bleeding edge of tuba technology. If you want a different F tuba, go for it. But regardless of what changes, *the player makes the music*.

-- There are only two reasons to buy a tuba: because you want it and because you can afford it. If the second part is in doubt, make sure you buy something that you could easily resell. Someone somewhere will always be looking to buy a used YFB822 or a MW45SLP. A custom-Hirsbrunner-7-valve-gold-plated-whatever may play perfectly, but is a much harder sell.

[jonesbrass]

But regardless of what changes, *the player makes the music*.

Bort is 100% correct on this one, IMO. To me as long as the horn doesn't have a technical defect, it all boils down to the player and the question I always ask: "Who is playing whom?"
Are you in control of the horn, or are you at it's mercy? A good player can pick up anything and make it sound good. An poor player, not so much. Don't worry so much about the equipment, put your time and effort into making real music, from a musician's standpoint. Yes, we all play the tuba, but we should all be musicians who happen to play the tuba. Get those ducks in a row, then when you have the cash, go hunting. Once you're at that point, there will be no other alternative but to play-test before you buy, because the real issue will be not only what can you do with it, but do you like what it does for you . . . Not something that can be answered on an internet forum.

[tubashaman2]

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[Matt G]

WAIT to buy another F tuba until YOU DO NOT FEEL AS THOUGH YOU NEED TO ASK YOUR TEACHER. That way, you'll end up with something that YOU like.

This.

Also, the 180 should be more than capable of having a working lower register for works like Die Meistersinger with practice. I have a hard time believing that you can't get out of a student orchestra on a 180. Honestly, you need to 'shed the low register on the 180 until you have full command of it. Once the 180's low register is working, you will have a far better set of tools to evaluate any other potential F tubas with.

In regards to Eb. It's a set of fingerings. Learning Eb fingerings took me 2 weeks, 3 years after I left college and had a real job (i.e. little time to work on fingerings). If you find an Eb with "that sound" don't pass it up because you don't know that Db is 1st valve.

Having played horns that get labeled "stuffy" in low registers, and ultimately working around them, I can tell you that I knew much more quickly of a horn's aspects then those who were indifferent. This isn't to say that people should accept poor quality horns, but rather to illustrate that working the chops so that the horn isn't your handicap will make you a better player. A person who sounds great on a "bad" horn will sound great on any horn. A person who sounds "meh" on a $$,$$$ "good" tuba will sound "meh" on everything else.

Go back to bloke's recommendations of working up F tuba chops. If you can, play the 180 exclusively for a month. Do everything on it. The 180 will become a "better" horn for you, just like the "breaking in period" thread alludes to.

Furthermore, your "potentials" are all over the place. The MW 182/2182 are tiny. The Willson is like a 7/4 F tuba, I haven't played the rotary version, but the piston version offered CC tuba sound/response with F fingerings. The Yamaha YFB-621 is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type of tuba. The YFB-822 has some pro-level users, and I suspect that they have ones that have mitigated pitch issues. The current PT line is okay, but a few of the newer ones are a bit supersized on the upfront valve bore. I personally like the MW 45/46 tubas in rotary issue, but not the piston versions. I've never played the Cerveny, but they are probably good alternatives. With all that being said, those are my opinions.

Having played a decent number of F tubas, I can tell you that I found few problems with getting around in the low register even on horns deemed "stuffy". However, I spent about a full semester playing F only, and played a CC tuba that often gets labeled with a "Stuffy" low register (188CC) for a long time without issue in the low register. In fact, most people thought the low register must have been quite excellent (open) on mine. It wasn't. It was in the approach.

[jonesbrass]

How big is the new miraphone piston F, what current F model is it closest in size to

Check this out:
http://www.hornguys.com/tubaf.htm
about halfway down are side-by-side pictures of the Petrushka F with other popular F's, to make a visual comparison.

[J.c. Sherman]

Tubashaman (sp?)...

There is a great deal of information you are putting out there, and much of it is contradictory or wrong.

I won my opera audition playing Meistersinger on F. I didn't ask... it's what it was written for, sure, but not specifically a Yamaha 621. But they liked it enough. More importantly, HOW you play is infinitely more important the WHAT you play. I played a holy-$#I+ huge Alex CC and my Yamaha for that audition. I was, to say the least, atypical (certainly cost wise!). But it was what I was comfortable with for the repertoire.

Most of my playing over the years has been on my two old girls... my Imperial Eb and my 164 Alex CC. Between those two horns, I sound like ME, and I feel comfortable with both. The other instruments I've purchased I've bought for ME, to meet the needs of my ear and to make certain things more felicitous. But I didn't move on to another horn until I KNEW the horns I had... first the Boosey, then the Alex. It would be inexcusable otherwise. I had to be sure I could play ANYTHING on EITHER instrument (or first just on the Eb) before getting other instruments.

This from an equipment junkie, ophicleidist, luddite, boring weirdo.

Wouldn't play VW on your 180? Gene Dowling recorded it on a 180 beautifully! Want a more stable low register? The 180 was known for decades as one of only two F instruments IN THE WORLD with a stable low end (the other were the Besson Fs). Better fix it there before even thinking of playing a bigger instrument.

You're painting yourself into a corner of conflicts and excuses. You need to master an instrument - ONE TUBA (I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't fess up to doubling Euph and Bone too... but I KNEW my Yamaha 622 Bass and my Conn Euph too!), before you will really know what to buy.

My two girls have brought me wonderful experiences and better success than sometimes I hoped. But others have done it on more "popular" instruments, more expensive instruments. Punk Tuba, for example, is a dynamite player, and KNOWS his MW2000. He's selling that and moving on... but he can PLAY that horn, and is in a position to judge for himself what the next instrument for him will/can be.

You will not advance... will not grow... will not win... will not get into a college, based on the instrument you own or play. It'll be only based on your playing. Nothing more. One tuba at a time, dude. You're on very good equipment, provided it's in good working order. Some of the finest tubists have been practically monogamous on their instruments (Bishop – Alex 163; Jacobs – York CC; Torchy – King CC…the list goes on). They KNEW their instrument and could play ANYTHING on it. Be sure you can do the same before you augment your arsenal and start all over again.

I’m gonna go practice “Ride” on my F, just for fun

Be well, and take heed of the overwhelming advice you’re getting. Good ideas. And remember, you asked

J.c.S.

[Rick Denney]

James, you need to go your own way on this. The way you are synthesizing what folks are saying is pulling you into non-sequiturs. For example, nobody said the 621 was a solo horn; they said it wasn't a large-ensemble instrument, and some think the tone is bland. Not the same thing at all. But it is very good for many applications in the money-making worlds, and mine is still the only tuba I own that earned what it cost in the first little while of ownership.

But, really, all of this is how we have found our road, not how you should find yours. Build a list, understand the thought processes used by others--fine. But in the end, you have to decide which instrument fits your sound concept, abilities, and artistic intent. If you don't understand those things yet, then it's not time to spend money.

Rick "13" Denney