Deepcup mouthpiece on F?

[Wyvern]

It seems usual to use a shallow cup mouthpiece in an F tuba. But why is that as to me deeper cups usually produce richer tones?

Is anyone here using a deep cup mouthpiece on their F? If so, what sort?

[Tom Holtz]

I have a deep cup piece that I occasionally use with my Eb but not often. Jacking up the cup depth adds a bit of bottom to the sound, but it messes with the pitch on certain notes, and I lose some clarity and response as well. Not worth the tradeoff. Not even close, but that's just my opinion. Definitely falls in the "whatever works for you" category. There are those who like a big piece in a small horn, but I ain't one of them.

[tubatooter1940]

Klaus (imperialbari) mentioned (not a quote) that a deep cup mouthpiece can cause intonation problems in an older Eb.
I did not wish to bother him with a p.m. but I would like to learn more about this.
I bought a small shank G&W Diablo mouth piece for my 1940 Eb King. I need the stainless steel but could that be the reason my F in the staff is so darn flat?

[circusboy]

When playing F, I always preferred a deep funnel to a bowl--something like the Schilke 66 or GW Matanuska or Diablo. To my mind, it definitely made the sound much richer, and I didn't feel that I gave up anything in intonation or high range.

[Jonathan Fowler]

I use a Laskey 30G on my Alex 155. I went through many smaller, more typical F tuba mouthpieces (PT 65, Mar ST4, JK 3D, Bobo Solo to name a few that I tried) and found that the main weakness of the horn, being a German Rotor F, was still the low range. The depth of the 30G opens the low CC a great deal and keeps the higher, beefier notes from sounding too directional and harsh.

I couldn't be happier with the combo of Alex 155 and Laskey 30G, although it has always seemed a little odd to me.

[Wyvern]

But isn't the point of you using an F ... to have a lighter, brighter sound?

That may be the case when playing say Berlioz, but there are other pieces such as Wagner Lohengrin, or Flying Dutchman where the clear lyrical tone and secure high register of an F is welcome, but with a little more broadness. At least that is how I hear it in my head

maybe it's time for us to ask you to define "richer"

Now that is asking, to describe a sound in words! The best I can do is "broader harmonics"

[imperialbari]

Klaus (imperialbari) mentioned (not a quote) that a deep cup mouthpiece can cause intonation problems in an older Eb.
I did not wish to bother him with a p.m. but I would like to learn more about this.
I bought a small shank G&W Diablo mouth piece for my 1940 Eb King. I need the stainless steel but could that be the reason my F in the staff is so darn flat?

I will not fully endorse this interpretation of what I might have written about my troubles with making the Denis Wick 5, 5l, 4, and 4L work on my smallest tubas, the 1870 Besson Eb (0.632" bore) and the 1923 Boosey F (0.689" bore).

My lips are rather thick with muscle tissue plus whatever edemas the allergy may cause on any given day. My lips didn’t find room to work in these small DW pieces. Using DW 1, Conn Helleberg, Mike Finn 3H, or PT-50, worked to some degree. Range was there as was a wide dynamic bandwith. Only there was the constant danger of overblowing especially the small Besson Eb, and high range piano was never reliable.

Even if I apparently has panned his handle or handled his pan badly in another current thread, I seem to have found a worthwhile mouthpiece for these two tubas in bloke’s piece. It is wide enough for my embouchure to work, and it is shallow enough to keep these smaller tubas alive and projecting. But it is not extremely shallow, as the narrowing doesn’t start until after a cylindrical portion giving the lips sufficient space to vibrate freely inside the mouthpiece. The reversed-throath/second-cup accomodates low range playing, and even makes this piece relevant for some contrabass tubas (my German Martin rotary CC).

Yet this mouthpiece is not the solution for everything. It takes a strong embouchure and it is very unforgiving towards sloppy air support. It leans on the bright side soundwise, a problem I have found a remedy for. Where the MF3H is very, very heavy, the blokepiece is relatively light for its cup volume. I have a couple of weights for my mouthpieces. They move the formants down on the blokepiece. That is: they darken the sound without loosing projection.

Klaus

[Donn]

I bought a small shank G&W Diablo mouth piece for my 1940 Eb King. I need the stainless steel but could that be the reason my F in the staff is so darn flat?

My guess is, if you're playing it with 1st valve only, then no - mouthpiece is unlikely to have a major effect on that specific problem, though it might make it easier to lip up. For me, the only cure is 1st & 3rd. I haven't thought about this for a while, but I believe that in principle it's natural for the 5th partial to be out of tune with the others, so it's kind of a miracle when it works.

[tubatooter1940]

Donn, you are absolutely right. The 1 - 3 combination is better in tune but it doesn't slot as easily as !st valve only.
If I need to sting that F, I am torn between lipping up with the first or sneaking up on the one three combo.

[Donn]

Donn, you are absolutely right. The 1 - 3 combination is better in tune but it doesn't slot as easily as !st valve only.
If I need to sting that F, I am torn between lipping up with the first or sneaking up on the one three combo.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Well, I just now tried my Diablo vs. some other mouthpieces, and my casual impression is that it isn't the easiest one to lip up. The easiest was Schilke 62, which is about the smallest mouthpiece I tried (and also a very sweet bass tuba mouthpiece), but if you need a non-brass small-shank mouthpiece ... that's a small niche.

Can anyone compare the Loud LM-10 with the Marcinkiewicz H4 mentioned above? In terms of cup profile and throat, I suppose. It isn't promoted specifically as a bass tuba mouthpiece, but sounds like it's a relatively small volume. The copy mentions the Marcinkiewicz N4, but the bore diameter looks more like the H4.

[imperialbari]

Donn, you are absolutely right. The 1 - 3 combination is better in tune but it doesn't slot as easily as !st valve only.
If I need to sting that F, I am torn between lipping up with the first or sneaking up on the one three combo.

1+3 usually is better in tune as you note. But it suffers a double problem if the 3rd slide is not pulled.

F fingered 1+3 becomes a 6th partial, which makes it having a much narrower slot due to the long portion of cylindrical tuning skewing the overtone resonances of the conical main bugle. The 6th partial already tends sharp and often will be even more so when much valve tubing has been added. If you attempt finding resonance for your in-tune buzz then the note is likely to crack.

Pulling the 3rd slide has been suggested, which may solve this problem (while it will create others).

I dont have a 3 valve tuba with top valves, so my substitute-for-a-trigger experience comes from my YFL-631 flugelhorn. My left thumb goes below the bottom branch and sits on the 3rd slide pulling knob. That allows my to adjust that slide on the fly.

In standing playing it might be hard to grap the 3rd slide bow on your Eb tuba. You might post a photo of you playing that tuba. There may be a cheap solution.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

If you like the PT90, you may like the PT20 mouthpiece. It was designed as a deeper bowl cup for the B&S F tuba range. Seems like a good match for those looking to find such a mpc.

Thanks L! I will check out the PT20 together with the PT72 which has also been recommended and compare with using my ever faithful PT90.

[J.c. Sherman]

YMMV, but...

I use a Faxx Helleburg on my Yamaha 621 F. Only switched from cup to bowl a year and a half ago. It really worked great, save that top F above the staff is a tiny bit flat...

I use a Yamaha Self on my Boosey Imperal Eb. Again, much deaper than what I used to use, which was a (drum roll please...)

Miraphone C4. And I can't use anything else on an Alex F. But I only recently let go of this mouthopuiece on the above horns. But I still use a cup-shaped mouthpiece on my 164 CC Alex...

J.c.S.

[MaryAnn]

For someone with a metal allergy, I'll suggest once again to simply cover as much of the piece as you need to with nail polish. Buy the kind that doesn't have the bad chemical in it (tolerene, tulorene, something like that, I think Revlon sells it) and it will last quite a while before you have to re-coat it.

I was also allergic to the clear (go figure) so I use red when I don't have a gold-plated piece available. And I'm not allergic to kelly pieces either, although they don't come in nearly as many flavors as metal pieces do. (flavors, not colors....)

MA

[Rick Denney]

...(tolerene, tulorene, something like that...

Toluene--a common solvent for paints.

Rick "who remembers that from the plastic model paints of his youth" Denney