Vaughan Williams original manuscript solo part...

[lgb&dtuba]

According to what I have been told, you can legally distribute 10% of a work for educational/study purposes.

You've been told wrong. Do your own research on copyright and you'll see.

[Tubainsauga]

I have a proposal that may or may not work to both appease copyright as well as provide the articulation markings. It would seem that if one were to mark a transparency with the articulation that bloke has transcribed onto his copy, aligned to work as an overlay to any standard published part that this would avoid any legal issue. This would not be providing any performable part to any of the music, but would also act as a valuable tool to those studying the piece (and who already posses a legal copy). Just a thought.

[Rick Denney]

Maybe (not this week ) I should record all three mvts. and let people *hear* the differences.

That would take a small fraction of the time of describing "this" measure, "that" note, and "those" phrase markings.

bloke "Never intending to, the damn thing's been committed to memory for decades...probably *beyond* memory... "

1. Many would greatly appreciate the recording.

2. That would not take the place of making the revisions known in some written-down way.

3. There are others who would be willing to do that writing, but who will not offer to do so directly because of the box you put around yourself in your first post.

Rick "not writing any PMs" Denney

[BVD Press]

- too many wrong notes

Quick question here: If there are a bunch of wrong notes compared to the manuscript, I am a bit confused as to why teachers across the globe have not marked up their own published copies and their students copies as well? Having played this chart for a bunch of different teachers the only comments I have heard about wrong notes have been in the cadenzas and these are just alternate notes. Maybe the notes have just been accepted as correct but are not??

[BVD Press]

How many of these experts that are teaching across the globe have done any sort of real musicological research, such looking at the rental manuscript or taking a trip over to the British Museum?

No clue. I am not sure where "experts" came from, but if you happen to be teaching at a college and teaching the VW I am sure there is some sort of knowledge that has either been passed down or researched. Research can come in many forms including lots of listening to various other player's recordings which is why I am curious about the wrong notes. WIth so many recordings, I am guessing someone went back to the original and made a choice on which pitches to play. Bloke: Any recording close to the version you have?

To me, the phrasing and articulations can leave a lot up to interpretation, but notes should be played as written. Heck, you can even have a debate on slurs vs. a phrase mark if you want!

[BVD Press]

If someone wants to do the legwork and try to authorize this, I will post it.

Since this would be legal in Canada, let me talk to a Canadian publisher friend and I will get back to you.

Will a PM work?

[tmmcas1]

Greetings,

Interesting discussion. Gene Pokorny talked at great length about the differences between the original and printed version at ITEC last summer. Ron Bishop also chimed in and said he had copied markings from the original rental. There seems to be a movement afoot to get a better edition of our biggest "standard".

Below is an exchange between myself and Roger Bobo for the interview we did for the ITEA Journal Volume 35 Number 4 (Summer 2008):

RB: You asked me, and we’ve discussed my “edition” of the Vaughan Williams. My edition is very close to what was available on the score when I first started playing this piece before Oxford Press printed it. The story I found out is that Dr. Vaughan Williams, when it was done, wanted to make it idiomatically functional for the tuba. The tubist that was chosen was Phillip Catelinet. He was not a tubist. He was a pianist and a euphonium player and a great musician! No disrespect is intended, but perhaps he wasn’t the best choice to edit. The editings that he made were that of non-tuba playing brass bandsman in 1954. Those went into print. Now we have conservative tubists saying, “We must play these markings.” I’m not going to be stuck playing Catelinet’s markings from 1954. I want to play my own. Having the original Vaughan Williams articulations, phrasings and editing’s from his hand written score I made my edition, which ends up being very, very similar. Vaughan Williams did write some phrases that were physically impossible. No one in the world has that much air. I put in breaths. I now have four versions of the Vaughan Williams that I like my students to play. The Catelinet (Oxford Press), the copy of the score (as Vaughan Williams wrote it), mine, which I guess we can call the “Bobo” editions, and a fourth one that has no phrase markings at all—no dynamics and no phrases. The students, if they are evolved enough that far, can make their own decisions.

TM: Can you tell me the differences between the original an your edition?

RB: Very little, just better places to breathe. It’s “tuba realistic.” It’s quite different from what Catelinet did, and I’ve made far fewer changes. I want the spirit of what Vaughan Williams wanted to hold true, and I think the Catelient version comes up short. I run into a lot of resistance because people don’t want to play what’s not written, particularly in Japan! I just heard that one very famous tuba player in Germany said he would not advance anyone in a competition playing my Vaughan Williams because it’s too far away from the Oxford University text. That’s crazy.

TM: Any thing else you want to add about the Vaughan Williams?

RB: It’s not one of his greatest pieces, but it’s a beautiful piece and can be very effective. In order to make it effective I feel strongly that we have to depart from the Oxford University “text,” so to speak.

TM: Right.

RB: The Oxford University text is just inadequate. It turns it into a second rate piece. I can hardly bare to listen to it when it’s played as printed. It just sounds so much better as originally intended. It can go from a mediocre piece to a beautiful piece.

TM: Sounds like we need someone to record it and challenge all of our thinking on this.

RB: Well, tubists are very reluctant to this. I don’t know why. Perhaps this is my thing, and they’d rather do their thing when they record it. Or maybe they, even the famous, best ones in the world, are reluctant to move away from the text. It always falls very short of its potential and I feel very strongly about that. My biggest regret is that I never recorded it. I wish that I had had the opportunity to record it. I did have the opportunity to record it with a band in Italy, but it was at the time when I was considering to stop playing. It was a time where I didn’t sound good to myself. I practiced more and still didn’t sound any better, and I decided it’s time to quit playing the tuba.

[imperialbari]

Very interesting interview! And not differing from the main intend of the OP of this thread.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Maybe (not this week ) I should record all three mvts. and let people *hear* the differences.

I certainly would want to hear such recording, but cannot avoid thinking that this would create copyright/license problems of its own.

Klaus

[BVD Press]

It would be great if BVD could put something out with regard to this. I've seen Roger Bobo's work on this and picked his brain. I'd love to see what Joe has in the Bloke Archive. A very worthwhile project.

I will see what I can come up with on Monday.

[josh_kaprun]

Bloke, does your copy have (in mvt. 1) a slur/phrase marking across the entire run from the low F in measure 15 to the high Bb right before rehearsal 1 in the following measure? My copy also has the four sixteenth-notes in measure 27 being (in order) C, F, Gb, Bb. I have a hand-written copy that matches the handwriting in the A-score (which I also have a copy of) and I'm curious if that is the same part that you have.

[anonymous4]

I just heard that one very famous tuba player in Germany said he would not advance anyone in a competition playing my Vaughan Williams because it’s too far away from the Oxford University text.

As annoying as this is, this is something to keep in mind regarding talk of new editions, etc. In a situation where the people judging are sometimes not tuba players (auditions, competitions) wouldn't it be a big time risk to play a corrected editions. The listeners, who have heard it one specific way for years, might just perceive it as playing a bunch of "wrong" notes and articulations. What do horn players do with their various editions of Mozart? Maybe we can take a cue from those who were there before.

[Rick Denney]

What do horn players do with their various editions of Mozart? Maybe we can take a cue from those who were there before.

I think we can take our cue from Roger Bobo's teaching method. Note that he had his students play three different versions--the original, his revision of the original, and the printed version. The best students were also expected to play a fourth version--their own, based on how they edited a version with just the bare notes.

Thus, I would think a player prepared to advance at auditions should be able to manage any approach, just as I would expect the best horn players to be able to play the various editions of the Mozart concerti. My bet is that when a Mozart concerto is included on an audition, the required edition is specified.

Rick "really wishing Bobo had found an opportunity to record the work" Denney

[imperialbari]

The Mozart situation is very different as period practices included embellishments and to some degree improvisations. What, aside of great musicianship, is demanded from a Mozart soloist, is an understanding of the period frame of reference including the limitations of the natural horn. Mozart had a profound understanding of period limitations and turned them into assets. 15 year ago I worked intensely with the KV447 score on basis of a score close to the Urtext. I was astonished to find that the tonal freedoms of the violins weren’t exploited in this work. But for the octave Mozart mostly gave the the violins scale material that could be performed on the hand horn. A true horn concerto.

Once one of my students was given an edition, where a still famous horn soloist had written down his own improvisations to be copied by the player. That edition was useless, as it prevented the player from reading the basic structure provided by Mozart and then act accordingly.

Klaus

[Amilcare]

Actually, I am not sure what the copyright issue is as the corrections might come under "fair use." That Oxford has decided to burden us with a mass of errors would not preclude using this corrected part with the rest of their ill-conceived materials. Also, if no profit were involved, it would be a service. I've done the work and shared it around by hand.

[imperialbari]

So we should consider the print versions of the VWTC apocryphal?

K

[imperialbari]

Not at all. You were the one to bring up the dubious books, which in some versions of the Bible are placed between the Old and the New Testaments. I just took the tech term back on the original topic.

K

[Amilcare]

Actually, the real history of the RVW concerto needs to be done in a proper historical, musicological manner. I had heard about a talk given by the original soloist (Philip Catelinet) at an ITEC a decade or more ago. His recollections were amusing, but he seemed to think the whole affair a bit of a joke or even an imposition on his otherwise quiet life. I do have a CD I bought in London of the premier recording with Catelinet as soloist. He was a former RAF euphonium player when he undertook to play F tuba (a very small one) with the LSO. Sadly, we do not know what horn RVW had in mind for the piece. The trills in the first movement are easier on the Eb;-)

[Amilcare]

OK

[Amilcare]

two of three