Cerveny 681 - Suitable for a first-time player?

[Mark Horne]

This will be my first post on the board although I've been lurking for a couple of months or so. This is one of the best music forums that I have seen with a high degree of activity/interactivity and a good mix of experienced pros and amateurs along with newcomers to the low brass world.

I'm a long time brass player - primarily french horn and trumpet, but until last summer I had never tried a tuba but long wanted to. I have always been partial to the bottom octaves of a wind ensemble and have played bass and contrabass clarinets in concerts, but I've come to the conclusion that nothing can match a tuba for generating solid fundamentals.

So last July I took a bit of a risk in purchasing a Cerveny ACB681 5-valve CC tuba from a reliable seller on that welll-known auction site. The horn was in surprisingly good condition and functioned well right out of the box. After trying a few pieces I've found that the Perantucci PT44 suits me the best so far. Of course it has taken a while to adjust to a tuba embochure and the different adjustments it takes to play in highest and lowest registers. Right now I would say my biggest challenge is getting clean attacks in the middle-low register (from around the D below the staff descending to around A or Ab) especially when making wide jumps from higher notes.

This brings me to my question. Would the Cerveny be considered a reasonable horn for an adult learner to start on (and be able to progress to at least an intermediate-plus level)? If I were to get a more "upscale" horn such as an MW Thor or a Mirafone 1291 what kind of differences could I expect to encounter?

For now I'm content to just play for myself, but my goal is to gain enough proficiency and sound quality to join the "back row" of one of the two community bands I currently play in.

Looking forward to your comments.

Thanks, Mark

[iiipopes]

Since you have other brass experience, the 681 will be fine. Don't be put off by the larger bore. The "blow" of a tuba is more a function of a combination of the geometry of the mouthpiece, gap, receiver and leadpipe geometry than the bore. Moreover, PT mouthpieces are considered a top rate range of mouthpieces. The PT44 is a good mouthpiece for that horn.

The 681 is not just a "beginner" horn or just a "veteran" player horn. It is a fine all-around horn, from beginner to veteran player. With the PT44, you have a fine combination that should last and serve you well with distinction for as long as you want to play tuba. When I was shopping for a good rotor BBb, before I got my Miraphone, The Cerveny 681 was one model I considered along with the B&S/PT 101/201/3101/3103 variants with rotors as well.

As a converted trumpet player myself, even after all these years, I can also have days where lower intonation is "off." For converted trumpet players, it's usually an air velocity issue: the back of the tongue is a little too high; the reflex is to try harder; as a result the aperture closes back up on the embouchure due to tension, and all this increases the velocity of the air as it transitions the embouchure making it want to vibrate faster, meaning higher pitch as a result of Bernoulli's principle in action, and the low range does not want to settle in.

Relax, steady the air, think for an articulation the Chinese consonant that is between a "T" and a "D," like you're pronouncing the name of the Tao or Dao, but with an "Toh" or a "Doh." Articulate with the point just behind the tip of the tongue, farther back on the tongue than where we articulate a conventional Western hard "T" consonant with the tip of the tongue articulating against the top of the incisors where they meet the palate, or where we were taught to articulate on trumpet, but not so far back as to be on the flat of the tongue where we say the conventional "D" consonant. This intermediate point articulates by contact at the point where the upper teeth meet the palate, and minimizes the disruption of the airflow, which on tuba needs more volume and less velocity in general than on trumpet. With a steady, but not forced, air support, this can help clarify the articulation.

[The Big Ben]

This horn will be fine. If it is in good physical shape with tight valves and no air leaks, you should be able to learn to play it and play it well.

As a trumpet doofus myself, I would heartily suggest taking a few lessons from a tuba man. Not an 'all around brass teacher' but specifically a tuba teacher. There are some tricks that a specialist can show you that the generalist might not know. If you could say where you live, perhaps someone could recommend a teacher near you. A half dozen lessons might be really helpful.

I started on a BBb but have often wondered if starting on a CC would have been easier. CC fingerings are the same as a trumpet but on bass clef so you need learn bass clef if you don't know it already. It didn't seem too difficult to pick up the new fingerings for BBb at the same time as reading bass clef so I don't know. I will probably be staying with BBb for awhile. The BBb suits my needs right now. An Eb/F with a singing high range is appealing but I have my hands full with what I am doing now. If I get into a quar/quintet, I may change my mind from a 186 BBb to something with a smaller sound but would probably just blow softer....

Enjoy!

[Donn]

I started on a BBb but have often wondered if starting on a CC would have been easier. CC fingerings are the same as a trumpet but on bass clef so you need learn bass clef if you don't know it already.

Or Eb, where you get apparently the same notation, at the expense of some confusion with the accidentals.

For someone versatile enough to play trumpet, horn, and low clarinets, plus the tuba, I'm guessing that reading isn't the major challenge, but the Bb/C/Eb/F choices can also be interesting in other ways, in terms of responsiveness, range etc. I started playing tuba after a brief career playing Eb contrabass clarinet alongside the tubas, myself, and some of my early choices of tuba may have not been very astute. I had pretty much dropped out when, on kind of a whim, I got a little Italian Eb that put the whole thing into a new perspective that was a lot more rewarding. I think it cost me $200, maybe closer to $300 counting postage and the special small shank mouthpiece.

[Lew]

I think that the Cerveny 681 is a perfectly fine horn for beginning to intermediate adult players. For community bands I would see no need to "upgrade" at any time in the future as long as you are happy with the way it plays. A more traditional choice for community band playing would have been to get it in BBb, but since you have the CC there's certainly no reason to change. I prefer the 686 or 601 because of the larger bell, but the 681 is a perfectly reasonable horn.

The only thing to watch out for is that Cerveny's are typically made of relatively thin brass and are therefore a little more susceptible to denting. As long as you take care of it I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be perfectly fine for a long time.

[Mark Horne]

Thanks everyone for the feedback on the Cerveny and the fact that the horn itself should not be a limiting factor.

iiipopes - thanks for the tips on articulation - as I was playing staccato notes in my troublesome range (Bb below the staff) I noticed that I was allowing my tongue to extend well beyond my teeth, causing some of the sloppy attacks. I'll need to be more mindful of my tongue position as I try to find the most effective embochure position for this range.

Others have talked about the various choices of keys of instruments. I decided on CC because, even though I'm not that adept at reading bass clef, I like the concept that written C's are open - more in line with the transposing instruments that I play. I also gave some thought to an Eb tuba and using the "pretend it's treble clef plus 3 sharps" trick, but I figured that would only be more confusing in the long run.

Still, I would be curious to learn from those who have played both a 681 and a "higher-end" CC such as 186/188, 1291, or a Thor - what are the most notable differences?

Thanks, Mark