Vaughan-Williams question

[ZNC Dandy]

I agree. The 2nd Movement of the Tuba concerto is wonderful, but over all, the Oboe Concerto is much better. I have issues with people writing tuba solo's that fly into the stratosphere, so i'm a bit biased I guess. The Six Studies in English Folksong, is a much better showcase of the tuba.

[Rick Denney]

...I think the tuba concerto is among if not definitely, his weakest musical work.....

I have also listened to everything in his ouvre that is recorded, and some that isn't, and I can't think of a countering example.

But let's ask a corollary question. What tuba concerto by a major composer (read: a composer that even the Maestro might have heard of, let alone the ladies of the Symphony League) is better?

Rick "and since I can't play the John Williams, it doesn't count" Denney

[Adam C.]

The Romance for Harmonica in Db is pretty far down the list - it might be worse.

I believe the 2nd mvnt of the Tuba Concerto is comparable to much of RVW's better work. Some of his signature orchestration and chords are nice in the 1st and 3rd mvnts though - played without an orchestra it loses a lot (duh?).

[tubashaman2]

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[tubacrow]

Even if you do consider it one of his weakest works. I would contend that his weak compositions are better than many composers best works. While it is not one of my favorite works to perform, it is one of the ones I carry with me to everywhere



edited for verb agreement

[Wyvern]

Oh dear - is it RVW tuba concerto bashing season again?

I don't know why us as tuba players have to talk the work down so often? The Romanza I would say is one of the BETTER things Vaughan Williams wrote and most non tuba players I know who have heard, enjoy that movement. The outer movements are quite fun and show off the agility of the tuba, which is usually a surprise to the audience and no doubt what RVW intended.

Is it his worst work? Of course not! His worst works are just not performed, so we don't know them. You are comparing it to his BEST works which you do know. The fact that concert organisers (at least in the UK) do programme the tuba concerto at least occasional shows they do not consider it his worst work - Case for the defence made!

[Kory101]

Vaughan Williams wrote a tuba concerto? Huh.....

[peter birch]

It would difficult to the point of impossibility to say. Anyone who has ever created anything, from a concerto, a painting or a building even, right down to an academic assignment will have an idea of what their best work is, and will show it off to the world, and they will know what their worst work is, and supress it.
An equally valid question is "is it the worst thing ever writeen for the tuba?" and I guess the answer has to be no (for me, that title would go to "tuba smarties" written by Herbie Flowers and recorded by Sky in the 1970s).

[sinfonian]

Let's not forget the historic prospective. At the time no one else was writing Tuba Concertos. So even if it wasn't his best work it was better than anyone else was doing for us at that time in history.

[tbn.al]

Is it his worst work? Of course not! His worst works are just not performed, so we don't know them. You are comparing it to his BEST works which you do know. The fact that concert organisers (at least in the UK) do programme the tuba concerto at least occasional shows they do not consider it his worst work - Case for the defence made!

At the moment I am comparing it to the 2nd movement of his 2nd Symphony, which IMHO might elicit the most emotional reaction from me ever. The tuba concerto, even the 2nd movement, while very nice doesn't come close. On the other hand, Neptune brings an entirely new perspective, paraphrase, " How much dreadful music did he write that we have never heard?" I am sure there must be some, somewhere. No one's perfect, but RVW is on my top 5 all time composer list. I'll be willing to bet that most of the bad stuff never got to paper. He filtered it out before it got that far. His genius would kick in first.

[windshieldbug]

I'm not fond of the Drinking chorus from "The Rape of Lucretia" (deservedly unpublished).

The Tuba Concerto was light years ahead of anything similar at the time it was written and first performed, and as such, I would not compare to anything else he may have written during his career.

It's like saying that Dr. Christiaan Barnard botched the first heart transplant because the recipient died 18 days later...

(what it did do was start people thinking about what worked well, and the possibilities!)

[Rick Denney]

At the moment I am comparing it to the 2nd movement of his 2nd Symphony, which IMHO might elicit the most emotional reaction from me ever. The tuba concerto, even the 2nd movement, while very nice doesn't come close.

That's a tough comparison. The slow movement in the London is as much about harmony and orchestration as about melody, and solo works just must be about melody. That's like comparing someone singing the Tallis hymn's melody (I don't recall the hymn number or title from the old English Hymnal) with the Tallis Fantasia. When I heard that work performed in London, they preceded the Fantasia with a verse of the hymn sung off-stage by a 20-voice choir. It was incredibly effective and powerful, and it also highlight just how much RVW added to the work through his skill at harmonic and thematic manipulation. The slow movement of the Second Symphony has that same concept, which is no surprise given that both were composed close to each other after his studies with Ravel.

The Tuba Concerto, on the other hand, is as much as anything a musical joke, and the Romanza is the surprise in the middle that tells us the joke is funny by providing the serious contrast. It's awfully hard to compare a comedy with a drama in any genre or artistic medium.

We tuba players keep looking for the work that will make us mainstream concerto soloists. As Bevan observed, the dearth of anything in the repertoire offered to unseat the Vaughan Williams might be an indication of just how difficult it is to effectively portray the tuba in that role. At the end of the day, Vaughan Williams might have come as close as anyone.

If I have a beef with the RVW is that it's not a characteristic brass work. I was talking with a symphony pro about it a while back, and he commented that it would sound just as good, and maybe better, on bassoon. I can hear especially the third movement on bassoon in my head, and I agree with him. But the bassoon has that same essential humor, and good bassoonists, like good tuba players, know how to bring it out.

Several tuba players have performed the Strauss Horn Concerto, and that work, to me, has the brass grandeur lacking in the RVW. It works very well on tuba. But it works even better on horn.

Rick "thinking we are still waiting for the mainstream orchestral tuba concerto that only sounds right when played on a tuba" Denney

[Wyvern]

How much dreadful music did he write that we have never heard?

It is worth looking at RVW Society website for a list of his works. Considering his other solo works, there are several I have never heard.
http://www.rvwsociety.com/worksconcerto.html
If they are better, or worst than 'our' concerto I don't know???

[Rick Denney]

What *is* "characteristic" for us...?? Smatterings of loud two-beat-long farts mixed in with bits-and-pieces of Bb/Eb scales that don't cross any partials...??

If I could answer that, I would solve the problem by writing it. So would you. For all the artistry of our best soloists, they are still trying to persuade people that the tuba can be something it isn't by playing music written for other instruments. Do those works sound better than on the original instruments? Uh, no. They may sound fantastic, but any non-tuba-player listening would probably rather hear it on the original instrument, at least after the novelty of hearing it done surprisingly well on tuba.

What we are waiting for is the work that when you hear it, you think it just wouldn't sound right on any other instrument. Can you imagine the Strauss Horn Concerto played on, say, 'cello? No way. Trumpet would be better, but it still just sounds right on horn.

Rick "who'll know it when he hears it" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

I think his 5th Symphony is his worst.

CUZ HE DIDN'T WRITE A TUBA PART FOR IT!!!!!

He dissed us more than a few times - the Serenade to Music perhaps chief among them - but not inviting us to play on the 5th flat-out sucks.

[ZNC Dandy]

Let's go through and list these that we regularly hear played on our "classy music" radio stations...
- double bass concerti

I'm actually playing the Bottesini Concerto No.2 today on my "classy" radio station. That would be a blast on tuba!

[eupher61]

Several tuba players have performed the Strauss Horn Concerto, and that work, to me, has the brass grandeur lacking in the RVW. It works very well on tuba. But it works even better on horn.

Personally, I think the Strauss 1 is more characteristic of tuba, as it is played today, than of horn, as it is played today. There's so much grandeur in the melodic material that it needs the breadth of tone that can't be had in a pea-shooter bored instrument.

[Rick Denney]

I think his 5th Symphony is his worst.

CUZ HE DIDN'T WRITE A TUBA PART FOR IT!!!!!

He was giving us a rest after the Fourth, which, in the words of one pro, could be the hardest orchestral tuba part in the repertoire.

Rick "wondering how RVW might have composed had he experienced a large contrabass sound" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'll put forth the idea that the Concerto is much better when played as intended...with orchestra! The piano reduction is one of the worst ever and just doesn't convey the depth of the piece well at all...especially in the outer movements.

Todd S. "accompanying a senior tuba student for this piece again this semester" Malicoate

[tubashaman2]

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