Another F tuba question from Denmark

[Pultz]

In the early eighties I bought a Meinl-Western F Tuba. I did not know the grips of the Tuba so I contacted the Danish solo Tuba player Erik Åkerwall from the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra. He told me that this was his old tuba and that it was a Tuba that he had gotten custom made by the factory in Germany. According to Erik Åkerwall, only this one version of a Meinl-Western tuba with a 3 by 3 valves system was ever produced.
Sadly Erik Åkerwall has passed away, but I have contacted a retired professional who knew Erik Åkerwall and he has confirmed the story. Åkerwall wanted a tuba like the ones he had used in the 1950es built by the Danish manufacturer Gotfried. This had a “Vienna” Fingering with a 3 by 3 valve system and therefore Åkerwall had Meinl-Western produce a Tuba with this fingering system.
I have written to the Meinl-Western factory, but they have yet to reply to my letter.
This is why I hope that someone in this forum knows anything about Meinl-Western F tuba’s with a 3 by 3 valve system.
I sold the Tuba 15 years ago, and the present owner is now thinking of selling it. He does not play himself so the instrument has gone unused for the past 15 years, yet in spite of this it still works fine and with some oil and a chemical treatment I am sure it could be brought back to the state it was in when I played it myself in the early 1980es. I have sent some photos to Rick, who once again has offered to help me upload them.
You will see from these pictures, that there are a few dents in the Tuba

Thank you in advance for any information you might possess
Torben Pultz
Denmark.

[imperialbari]

If you don't know how to attach the photos to a posting, you may send them to me, and I will post them later tonight after some practising (tuba, not attaching photos).

Klaus

[imperialbari]

First 3 photos, reduced in size to fit within the file limit of 256K:

[imperialbari]

Bell engraving view #2.jpg

As there are no blueprint-type photos of front and rear, nothing may be said for sure about the layout of the valve slide tuning.

However a reasonably likely suggestion would be:

L1: whole step
L2: semitone
L3: minor third

R1: long whole step
R2: long semitone
R3: fourth (5 semitones)

There has been some pitch device on the main tuning slide.

This one very likely was a variant of the period 6 valve F tuba from MW.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

I have sent some photos to Rick, who once again has offered to help me upload them.

Sorry, Torben. I was out of town over the weekend, and I see that Klaus has already posted them.

Klaus, doesn't this look like a Viennese F tuba?

Rick "remembering that the hands were switched but not remembering much else" Denney

[petter@brasseriet.no]

This looks like a quite normal Melton / Meinl Weston F-Tuba with "Wiener Griffweise"
Until recently, Wenzel Meinl GmbH have published their price list with this fingering
as an option on some F-Tuba models.

[imperialbari]

The Gtzen element of the engraving tells me which Copenhagen store was involved in the deal. Two persons related to that peiod of the store, both younger than me, still are in the business, but they are out doing exactly business. One may be available later today, the other one not until next week.

Was MW ever a division of Getzen? I dare doubt that, whereas I easily see the befinits of a close marketing cooperation baack 40 or 50 years ago.

Getzen was marketed as such in Denmark and still is. To my knowledge the MW products never or very rarely went around Getzen on their route to Denmark.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

First source remembered this tuba from seeing it while he worked with woodwinds in the repairshop of the importer, but he could tell no specifics of ita original acquisition.

Oddly his own present company just cleaned and serviced an F tuba from the same period and with the same engraving, only it was of the more common 4+1RV set-up. It had belonged to the former tubist of the royal opera.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Was MW ever a division of Getzen? I dare doubt that, whereas I easily see the befinits of a close marketing cooperation baack 40 or 50 years ago.

No, but it was marketed as such in the U.S. Getzen was the official importer, and I recall the usual advertisement being "Meinl-Weston, Division of Getzen". That it says Meinl-Weston suggests to me that it was in the U.S. market originally--I thought all M-W instruments were sold as "Melton" in Europe.

Rick "never trusting the label on a tuba" Denney

[imperialbari]

So I thought, too. But very few European made tubas have been bought back to Europe. My York Master being one of them, and 10 years back I didn’t know that production scheme. Not that I regret the buy, as the tuba plays unbelieveably well, which one wouldn’t guess from its wrecked looks.

Back on the actual tuba: The two main tuba chairs here four or five decades back were held by Erik Åkerwall in the RSO and Allan Fredericia in the opera. Both had F tubas with the Getzen element in the engraving. It is unlikely they were bought anywhere but in Denmark or at the factory. My best guess would be the latter. And then these two tubists may have had access to pick among the tubas made ready for the US market.

Åkerwall apparently had been trained on tubas made by I. K. Gottfried, who stopped making valved brasses in 1943, when Markneukirchen no longer could provide valve blocks, and who never returned to brass making but for some copies of the Danish bronze age lurs. IKG couldn’t compete with the GDR-made instruments dumped on the western market.

These IKG F tubas were very small with bells no wider than modern euphoniums. Åkerwall kept that IKG tuba for many years after having turned to larger tubas in the RSO. We have a tradition of playing for silver and gold weddings very early in the morning, and that was where Åkerwall used his “cello” as he called it.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

And then these two tubists may have had access to pick among the tubas made ready for the US market.

I would bet that this is the explanation. I can hardly imagine a tuba made for the Danish or German market saying "Division of" anything using English words, but who knows.

Rick "thinking there wouldn't have been much of a market for Viennese F tuba in the U.S., however" Denney

[imperialbari]

Part of the legend about this actual tuba tells it was custom made. In a way that fits badly with the engraving, but then one design feature looks wrong in my eyes: the wrap of the L3 loop.

That has send me out guessing:

Åkerwall likely could play any valve layout sufficiently well to evaluate the instrument, whereas he would want the Gottfried layout for orchestral playing, because that was what he used to play.

He finds a desirable F tuba with the 4+2RV like known from the B&S Sinfonie.

The distance from the leadpipe to the main tuning slide first female branch is the same no matter whether the valves are for the left or for the right hand, so a reshuffling isn’t the biggest problem. The loop most integrated in the main architecture, the normal R4 carrying the interval of a fourth, even stays in place, only it is re-functioned to be the R3.

Making L1 and L2 into normal major and minor seconds instead of long versions of the same intervals is no problem. It also is easy to change the normal R3 into the present R2 carrying a long semitone.

Changing the normal R2 into the present R1 carrying a long whole step is worse, because it needs the space needed for the upwards turn of the normal R1, which now becomes the L3.

That is the reason why L3 has its loop placed in a plane above the other loops for the left hand valves. A plane that would normally be empty. Placing valve slides for ease of pulling is not a relevant consideration for an instrument needing both hands on the valves.

Speculating in the changing of valve loops isn’t foreign to me, as I have done so quite a bit on various trombones.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

And then these two tubists may have had access to pick among the tubas made ready for the US market.

I would bet that this is the explanation.

I would think that the explanation too. When I visit Mr.Tuba in South Wales it is not unknown to find a tuba engraved "Meinl-Weston" instead of "Melton". Mark Carter has apparently persuaded the factory to let him have a tuba from a batch made for the US market. No doubt that happened in the past too!

[imperialbari]

Torben sent some more photos, which do not really change my view on this tuba. The L2 valve is marked F6-121.

[imperialbari]

The last to ones for now:

[Pultz]

Just got a mail form Melton/Meinl Wester:
Dear Torben,
it seems to be a Melton/ Meinl Weston 46S with the Vienna stile of fingering ( 3 plus 3). If the bell is about 42cm it is a 46S, if the bell is 38cm it is a 46. We build in the past about 5 pieces of this instrument.

Hope this helps you.
Yours
--
Volkmar J. Kühnle
sales

The bell is 38 cm so it seems to be a 46.
With only 5 pieces buil ever, it might catch someones interrest.

[Pultz]

The tuba is now for sale.
2000 $ is the price, and I will not ship.
I am villing to drive to Copenhagen or Hamburg.

The 3 valve on the right side is a little slow, but it sounds great I have just bees playing it.