Writing for Elect. Bass & Using a Tuba

[peter birch]

I wouldn't "fret" about it..

[Dan Schultz]

Why not just play bass parts on a tuba? There was a day not too long ago when tubas or sousaphones were favored for use in stage dance bands. I use bass parts all the time when playing big band type material. I've found that the 'sweet spot' to produce the smoothest sound is between Bb below the staff and a high E near the top of the staff. Simply read the bass part up or down and required to get the right sound. I've developed a style that is very difficult to tell apart from a string bass.... NEVER brassy.

BTW... the left-hand of most any piano part can easily be adapted to play on tuba. The range is usually correct.

[scottw]

As the original poster on the e-bass-in-community-bands thread,I welcome this separate thread on the reverse: tuba playing what would normally be handled [better?] by a string bass [or an e-bass?]. As tinker has said, I have developed my skills at laying down that type of bass line and can honestly say I do it rather well, perhaps due to my years playing exactly that on string bass. Not all tubists, though, have worked on it sufficiently to avoid having it sound like a blatty march! This is something all tubists should be able to master and it sounds fine when they do. The reverse is not really true: an electric bass will never be able to play lyrical, sustained tuba parts satisfactorily, no matter their skill or equipment.

[peter birch]

I was brought up to play the tuba in a sustained sort way, shortening notes in marches and fast passages, but usually playing the note to its full extent.
I don't pretend to know much about the bass guitar, but my son plays one, and to my ears, it sounds like the note has a sort of "decay" on it which gives it its special quaility and timbre.
this is something I find quite difficult to do on the tuba, and I would probably say to composers and arrangers that a tuba is not a bass guitar, and to remember this when writing a bass line.
It also occurs to me that most composer who write for an e bass write the line as a guide for the player, who is usually a soloist and is skilled at improvisation, a line of 3 or 4 tuba players may not sound as good if they are all interpreting the line differently.

[Dan Schultz]

... I don't pretend to know much about the bass guitar, but my son plays one, and to my ears, it sounds like the note has a sort of "decay" on it which gives it its special quality and timbre. ....

Actually, this is quite easy to do with a little practice. The IS something a tuba can do that a bass guitar has difficulty with.... hold a sustained note for more than a short time.

I'll still vote for a tuba over an electric bass in a concert band any day. I just wish I could play chords on a tuba?

[rocksanddirt]

I agree with tinker. it is possible to play tuba and have a sound very similar to what a clean amplified bass guitar sounds like, or what a upright bass viol sounds like. Much harder to go the other way.

I also agree that many parts written for a bass with strings are more guidelines than rules, and that is nearly impossible to do with a section of tubas.

[peter birch]

well I guess it comes down to the musicianship of the player. on an orchestral score, the cello part and bass part are written on the same line, but the players understand that their respective instruments sound an octave apart, tenor singers understand that their line written on a trebble clef sounds in a different octave.
a composer, and players for that matter may not like to see lots of ledger lines on the score and so use a convention that it is written in one octave and played in another.

[bearphonium]

This post has been interesting, and might just explain one of the pieces my New Horizons band is doing this quarter. It is an arrangement of a J.S. Bach piece (Chorale Prelude-Wachet Auf) arranged by L. Williams. The trumpet section gets 45 measures of rest (in four, q=64), and plays about 12 measures of 74; the euphoniums play 6 whole measures...and the tuba part is laced with passeges that read "Eb tuba solo; F tuba solo; BBb solo; Eb & BBb (interestingly, no CC tuba) or some such combo every 2-4 measures. The lowest written notes are C below staff (twice), and in the "tutti" section, a B nat below that (once) and a G below that (once). THe range is, I suspect, what a string bass would be playing, as the highest note (occurring frequently in all "solo" and most "tutti" passages) is Bb at the top of the staff...sometimes at piano.

This piece is working out OK, in part because the other tuba part is covered by a euphonium player, playing his 642, so that upper range is no problem. We also took pity on the euphonium section, and gave them a copy of our stuff.

Along with what the OP stated earlier, I'm going to chime in that I have the same issues with writing for flute and piccolo, since I have no clue about how they were written and sound BUT...as I was arranging for them, I went and asked!

Ally"who has a somewhat more profane subtitle for the Choral Prelude that wachet auf"House

[Matt G]

This thread is very confusing.

As a 'bass' player in the ensembles I played, I was more than willing to educate myself on the various other similar instruments in their respective genres. This meant I learned how to read bass parts, baritone sax parts, bass clarinet parts, etc. That encompasses octave transposition, Bb treble to concert pitch transposition, Eb treble to concert pitch transposition. I also learned tenor and alto clef for giggles so that I could have fun playing a few trombone licks (in the appropriate range). It really doesn't take a tremendous amount of time to learn these skills, and they are quite helpful when re-applied in areas like learning new fingerings. I also figured out how to do some common "on the fly" transposition (down a m/M3, P4, P5, etc) out of necessity.

If you are seeing parts that are labeled "bass" and not specifically tuba, and seem to be an octave too high, then transpose. Sure there are some arrangers that don't quite have the right range for the tuba figured out.

In regards to playing e-bass stuff on tuba, true to an e-bass sound, it can be done. One of the groups from the glory days of WDW in C.FL., the "Hollywood Hitmen" would play a bunch of funk types of tunes. There was a guy who would play e-bass, but the parks had so many tuba players on call that the book was written to also be covered by a tuba player. I have heard some pretty solid "modern" bass line playing with a guy holding a sousaphone. The e-bass sound is attainable with enough (solid) technique.

Overall, when I was in *high school* it was expected of me to play string bass parts transposed on tuba on regular occasion. Any director worth his/her salt either knows that the bass part is octave transposed or you can take an orchestration book to them and set them straight. If a tuba player is not aware of this fact that string bass parts are written an octave higher and is trying to play well out of the intended register, then use the same orchestration book to smack them on the back of the head. Tuba playing is much more than mashing buttons and buzzing lips.

[lgb&dtuba]

Taking a string bass part down an octave on tuba is rather fundamental, isn't it?

[termite]

Bass/tuba parts - what octave?


I get very frustrated when I get a part written by someone who doesn't know what they're doing and I can see straight away what needs to happen so I tell the other guys in the section what to do, and they then look at me as if I'm from outer space and then ask the conductor, who never seems to know more than the idiot who stuffed up the part in the first place and who then tries to argue with me and tells the rest of the section to do something which makes no musical sense.

Most community band conductors seem to be high level players who don't actually know much about music. Most of the players seemed to have blocked their minds off completely from anything to do with how music is put together.

I have actually studied music and played keyboard for fifteen years, including playing from chord charts and arranging for a variety of ensembles, also working songs out from scratchy tapes and producing parts to be used for someone's Bridal dance the following day. (For no extra money).

To then have people assume I know absolutely nothing because I'm not standing out the front with a stick (which for some reason confers God-like status) is very frustrating.

I really can't understand how people can play music in different groups for twenty, thirty or forty years and not pick up something of how it all goes together. Or be curious about how it all goes together.

Hi bearphonium.

J.S. Bach - Chorale Prelude-Wachet Auf. (I just realised there's been about four posts since you mentioned this).

If this is the piece I think it is then it was originally for organ and is very lightly scored having only three lines - the obligato melody, the chorale melody and the bass line.

The bass line is the organ pedal part - the actual sounding pitch of pedal parts varies depending on what stops are selected but generally it comes out an octave lower than written. I think this one is marked to be played with a single 16 foot stop which would drop it down an octave.

In Bach's time bass lines weren't orchestrated in any specific way - they just wrote a bass line in the middle of the stave often using the normal range of the human voice. What octave it actually got played in would vary depending on who was playing it and on what instrument.
If you're realising such a part on tuba you just play it in a comfortable octave. If it doesn't sound right - too low, too heavy or whatever then you shouldn't be there playing it on tuba - you shouldn't be trying to play piano in a high register trying to sound like a flute stop on an organ. If you are then someone - the arranger????? has stuffed up.

I cannot imagine this piece being arranged for full band without turning into a horrible bloated ...I don't know what - like Stokowski's Bach transcriptions only on steroids. It's a very light transparent piece - the whole point is the interaction of the three lines, not great slabs of sound.

From what you've said it sounds like the arranger had the organ part in one hand and a book listing the pitch ranges of the various band instruments in the other and then went through the momentous process of deciding what note to give to what instrument based on the band instrument book. In other words he has no idea.

If a high passage in your part sounds like it needs to be in that octave and there's not much happening then maybe leave it to the euphoniums/bass clarinet etc. If it feels like a bigger ensemble sound is needed then add in the tubas at a lower octave and maybe the octave below that as well if it suits the music.

It's not about "what was the original note, what instrument should it be transcribed for?" - it's about "how much sound does the music tell you it needs here?" - a light transparent sound or a huge wall of sound with the bass played in three octaves by ten instruments and the melody doubled high and low and everywhere. (You get the picture).

Something that a lot of "pop arrangers for band" seem incapable of doing is studying the older band repertoire. A lot of these old guys really understood how to write for band, not only how to use the different colours but knowing how to work around the "off" notes on various instruments - making sure that a naturally sharp note didn't get scored as a prominent major third etc.
I've often noticed that when an average band sight reads through some really easy recent pop tune arrangement it just doesn't sound very good compared to the same band sight reading through something scored fifty years ago. (Picture the arranger holding the "instruments of the band" book again).

I'll attempt to make a positive suggestion for this piece. If you're putting together a big concert program you don't have to have every instrument going flat out for the whole program - you could start the second half with a piece like this with about ten players and then build up through the next couple of pieces back to a full band. (Have people come on stage as needed).

Not sure how I came to write all this.

Regards

Gerard

[TUBAD83]

Robo, I understand what you're saying and I agree. When I see string bass cues I select one of three options: 1)play as written if its in a comfortable range; 2)take it down an octave; or 3)don't play it at all. If the director wants e-bass part to be played, he should get an electric bass PLAYER (no smart director push the issue and risk alienating his tuba section).

That said, let me ask this: why even compose for instruments that are RARELY played in concert/symphonic bands??? Other than the premier bands in the military and your all-region/area/state/world bands, how often do you have a string bass player in the ensemble (or a damn harp)??? Ive been playing in concert bands for almost 40 years and Ive played in only ONE ensemble that had a regular string bass player. I think its just a waste of time--write for the instrument that's going to be playing the part 95+% of the time--TUBA!

JJ

[Todd S. Malicoate]

A lot of tuba players cannot read down an octave without missing accidentals and or rhythms.

Really? A lot of them?

If so, that's really sad. I routinely encourage my high school and junior high/middle school students to read down an octave from trombone/euphonium method books and solos, and even the youngest players seem to "get it."

If your point is that some arrangers suck, I would agree. I would hardly consider this a "problem," though...it's been my experience that the vast majority of them get it right in regards to the proper octave for the tuba. Were you just wanting to see someone write "sorry, dude"? I doubt we can educate poor arrangers about the octave displacement of string/electric bass parts here.

[Matt G]

I am making one more feeble attempt. 1) I am not the conductor; 2) the conductor does not want the part read/written down an octave, he wants it played as written; 3) the composer, a student, also plays in a rock band so the rhythm should sound that way and the conductor allows this; 4) Again, I am not the conductor and no influence other than bring these points up;

Go to the music library and pick out any book on orchestration. It will substantiate your argument. If your conductor wishes to continue his stroll down ignorance lane, then you should probably "opt out" on that piece.

[Matt G]

I thank all for their input and concern and remember if you are given an electric bass part and it is demanded that the entire tuba section play it, well while listening to the ensueing elephant trumpeting, some of these ideas may be of benefit to you.

Here is the problem:

You are denigrating the e-bass (either consciously or not) in saying that the tuba section should not be required to play it. I have played in several groups where I was playing e-bass lines on tuba (in the proper register), with decent results. Your situation seems difficult, and I think many of us have had to deal with inept conductors and/or arrangements. I think many of us are on your side, and think it warrants you revisiting this point with both the arranger and conductor in discussions with several academic references. If they want to pursue their previous positions, then you can either let them know you aren't going to play this piece, or go through the motions just to shut them up. Remember, the conductor and arranger is far more responsible for the end result than you are.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'll give another feeble reply:

Looking again at the original post and original question, you are completely correct that it's ridiculous for an entire section to play "thumping" bass lines around middle C. It's poor arranging, and I can just imagine what it must sound like. When it's well done, bass lines originally played on electric bass can be quite successfully performed by a section of tubas - the examples are too numerous to begin to mention. It's unfortunate that you're a "guinea pig" in this experiment for a student arranger, but it sounds like that's part of what you signed up for. I think it's nice that your school offers such a vehicle for students wishing to learn the finer points of arranging for band.

It sounds like you've expressed your concern to the arranger and were shot down. What is left to do but lay out on this particular tune for the greater good? Let Joe have his solo, and you can just fake it or whatever to make the piece work better. Most of us have been there, done that.

I'm still bothered by your use of the word "most" in your posts:

• "Most" arrangers are quite good, and do understand that you shouldn't write rock-style electric bass lines in the high register for a section of tubas. This student is apparently not one of them. That said, one of the ways a successful arranger learns the craft is by hearing the things they write and, hopefully, taking note of what works and what doesn't.
  
  "Most" tuba players wouldn't pick up an electric bass part and play it in the notated octave - "most" of us are savvy enough to know that bass parts are notated an octave higher than they sound.
  
  I seriously doubt that "a lot" of tuba players can't read a part down an octave without missing accidentals and/or rhythms that they wouldn't have missed anyway...it's simply not that difficult.

I hope that didn't sound too "how great thou art," and I fully understand that it doesn't change your situation at all. I simply don't think that there's anything you can do at this point. I'll leave you with a thought that sometimes comforts me:

• "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Good luck with your concert and the rest of your studies!

[Rick Denney]

Is this just a college-band thing?

I've been playing in community bands and orchestras for 25 years, and I played for 8 years during school (those two periods being separated by another 8 years), and I have never, ever been asked to play an electric bass or string bass part in the octave written. My conductors have ranged from floor-door-window-ceiling hacks to highly gifted and trained conductors.

I've never seen a piece of music on the stand that evidenced a copyist who didn't know which octave in which to notate a tuba part.

I've never asked permission of the conductor to play the music in the correct octave, no matter how it's notated. Nobody has ever complained about my choices.

As a low-grade hobbyist, I've been able to read parts down an octave since early in high school. I've been expected to produce electric and string bass articulations since that time. I have played string-bass parts in a variety of settings, including an actual but small amateur orchestra, where our one string bass player (a retired pro) insisted that I give her a hand to bolster the section. I have more trouble reading it down an octave on F tuba, because that's not the instrument I normally use for those parts, and because I'm used to reading music in that register as written when playing F tuba.

It must be a college thing or some recent phenomenon, because I just don't see it. I have seen a lot of tuba parts that are not characteristic, but that's another problem altogether.

Rick "confused" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Is this just a college-band thing?..... I've never seen a piece of music on the stand that evidenced a copyist who didn't know which octave in which to notate a tuba part.

I've never asked permission of the conductor to play the music in the correct octave, no matter how it's notated. Nobody has ever complained about my choices.

.... It must be a college thing or some recent phenomenon, because I just don't see it. I have seen a lot of tuba parts that are not characteristic, but that's another problem altogether.

Rick "confused" Denney

Ditto. I often sit in with a 'big band' when they don't have a bassist. The bass parts I'm given are written and octave higher than they are intended to sound. I've also never been asked to play them as written.

[rocksanddirt]

Is this just a college-band thing?

'snip'

Rick "confused" Denney

my take, and I agree with you that the director generally goes along with what should be done (or you don't ask, and just do it right)....is that this is a new phenomenon brought on by the increasing use of software to compose music. When you are writing it out by hand, and arranging it by hand, you take extra steps not to have to fix something by finding out the normal range and written style for the vairous sections in whatever group you are working with.

With modern software, it's easy to fix/change/reprint.....and the advanced college student is, of course, absolutely correct that it should be played exactly as it is written with no changes, because to change based on feedback... why....that's selling out his artistic vision.

[lgb&dtuba]

I will give a little bio. here as it may be relevant to some. I am a retired military musician having played in Navy Bands, Army Bands and Army National Guard Bands. I have played the Tuba for over 40 years, I am a former Music Education Major and have two undergrad degrees. I am taking Band as an elective credit and pursuing a Masters in Cultural Anthropology. I do not judge quickly.

After re-reading your op I see the basic problem here. You are an adult who has gone back into the madhouse known as college and you're having to deal with the crap that professors routinely dish out because they can. Of course the professor could care less about your opinion. He's used to lording it over 18 year-olds who don't know any better.

As an adult you already know that particular class means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. It's a diversion. Recreation. Get through it and move on. I'm sure you dealt with worse than that in your military career.

Good luck with your degree.