So Low

[Mark]

Okay, it's not a tuba; but it is So Low: http://lachesis.caltech.edu/jayeaston/Recordings.html

[Captain Sousie]

The contras sound really cool. Pretty good for a saxophone

Sousie

[Biggs]

Here I cite the 11th commandment, Thou Shalt Not Kid Thyself. Let's be honest, the subcontrabass saxophone is more an elaborate noisemaker than a legitimate, usable instrument. The 'brown noise' is an apt description.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I guess y'all never heard some Contra Bass Clarinet and Octo Contra Bass Clarinet low notes. *Feels unloved*

Heard a lot of them, actually, in high school band (many, many years ago) -- I sat next to the contrabass clarinet player, and (as HS musicians are wont to do) we had frequent "low note contests"! I'm very familiar with (and like) the sound of a CBCl down in the "bass-ment" part of its range (true for the big saxes also) ...

[Biggs]

Thank you Kevin. And yes, you better respect Saxaphone players. I sit close to/are friends with a bari sax player. He can hold his own. Even to me, being very talented at the bass clarinet, he can hold his own in speed test. Of course, he's only one half step lower. they are powerful instruments when played low. the lowest sax ive heard was a bass sax. very, very low, indeed.

Wouldn't he be a fifth below you? Assuming you play a bass clarinet in Bb anyway. Your instrument's 'home pitch' is the Bb directly below middle C, i.e. pitched one octave above a BBb tuba. The baritone sax is pitched in Eb directly below middle C, just like an Eb tuba.

[Biggs]

But, when I play concert F i'm playing a G. Like a CC tuba.

I agree that when you see a written G you play concert F, but when a CC tuba sees a written G, it plays a concert G.

When he plays concert F he's playing a D. Like a F tuba i believe.

When he sees a written D, he does play concert F. But all tubas (minus brass band radical extremists) play the written pitch. So F tubas play concert D when they see written D.

[Biggs]

If so, then why are fingerings different for each note? You're saying, when a F tuba plays a D, he's playing concert F. then you said when he plays that D he's playing a concert D. you my friend are confusing.

Actually, I said that when an F tuba plays a D, he's playing a D. For all tubas reading bass clef, a written D is equal to a concert D. A written F is equal to a concert F. Tubas (with the exception of brass band sadists) always play the written pitch.

When I said

When he sees a written D, he does play concert F. But all tubas (minus brass band radical extremists) play the written pitch. So F tubas play concert D when they see written D.

the 'he' was in reference to your baritone sax friend.

[Biggs]

Thats because the other keys of tuba offer various advantages, according to tubists older and wiser than I.

[dopey]

The different keys relate to what their "open note" is..
..

Take a regular clarinet when they blow on it and not press anything a "G"(well.. they call it a G but its really a concert F.. but thats another discussion)comes out, right? for sake of our discussion make that equal to a Bb tuba.

Now imagine if they had another clarinet that when you blew and pushed nothing a "A"(again the note they call its, not concert pitch.) came out.. this is the same difference between BBb and CC tubas. The fingering patterns are the same, they merely start on different notes.

Its really just like how Trumpets are, they have Bb and C trumpets.. The only thing is, the music is rewritten for a C trumpet so a trumpet doesn't have to learn "new fingerings" he just uses his old Bb trumpet fingerings on a C trumpet with a C trumpet part and he is good to go. Bass clef on the other hand since it is non transposing requires the musician to know what the required fingering is on his given instrument (whether it be Bb C Eb or F) to produce the pitch written on the paper.

[dopey]

yes

[bttmbow]

I'm buying it.

CJH

[ThomasDodd]

Oh. Sorry guys, I was not educated that these tubas were keyed differently then a wind instrument is. :oops: But, I didn't learn all my musical stuff from watchin' T.V. So, case closed.

Tubas aren't keyed differently. The music is just written differently. Mostly for historical reasons.

The "key" of a horn is it's root pitch. So for WWs it the based on the tube length with all holes closed. For brass it with no extra tubing added (valved up, slide in). Opening holes (basically) shortens the tube on WWs, raising the pitch. pushiing valves (or extending the slide) adds tubing lowering the pitch. The amount of change is standardized. valve #2 is 1 semitone, #1 is 2 semitones, and #3 is 3 semitones. Each tone hole, as you work your'e way up a WW is 1 semitone. Because of the harmonics of the tube, a brass player only needs the 7 combinations to get a chromatic scale. A WW needs 12 tone holes. The clutches allow 1 finger to control more than one hole, since you don't have enough fingers. Register holes make playing higher otcaves easier, but add even more holes to control. If you change the root pitch, say shorten the horn, everything else changes in to keep the semitone steps correct.

Now what do you call the note fingered with the first valve down? Or on a clarinet with all but the last hole closed? On the brass horn it's 1 whole tone below the open pitch (for thet partial). For the clarinet it's one semitone above the root pitch.

Well, bass clef brass calls it by a name based on frequency. Standqrdized no on the A=440 Hz standard, or concert pitch. So an BBb horn sounds an Ab, a CC horn sounds a Bb, and an Eb horn sounds a Db. For some strange reason, trumpets (and treble clef euphonium) stuck with the names from a C horn when the root pitch was changed, letting the horn transpose the notes for them. So they call the note Bb, regardless of the root pitch of the horn. The same has happened with most (all?) WWs.

I think all horns should be written concert pitch, and the notes called by that name. Like bass clef brass does it. It should be written on the staff correctly too, behaps using octave references to keep the notes more readable. Flutes doe it a lot already. Imaging if a conductor/director could just ask for a Bb chord with the sections playing the root(Bb) third (D) or fith (F) without having to transpose all iof this for the players. Just tell the clarinets to play a D and the saxes to play an F. Noone having to bother with written pitch versus concert pitch, or the direct having to transpose first. Especially for new players, like middle school. Figuring out the horn is bad enough, having to learn 2 names for each note is ridiculous.

It took a while for me to figure out that was why the director kept telling the trumpets to play a a different note that the saxes, and the trombones some other note, even though they sounded the same to me. 20 years later I still don't know why it continues this way, but I'm glad I play concert pitch.

[corbasse]

...... Tubas (with the exception of brass band sadists) always play the written pitch.

Well, so far in my very short tuba career I encountered:
G clef transopsed Bb parts (brass band style)
Bass clef transposed Bb parts (written a seventh up..)
Bass clef written as sounding (which my teacher calls "those #%^&^* unreadable American tuba parts... )
It's just a matter of what you're used to.

[Biggs]

Biggs wrote:

...... Tubas (with the exception of brass band sadists) always play the written pitch.



Well, so far in my very short tuba career I encountered:
G clef transopsed Bb parts (brass band style)
Bass clef transposed Bb parts (written a seventh up..)
Bass clef written as sounding (which my teacher calls "those #%^&^* unreadable American tuba parts... )
It's just a matter of what you're used to.

Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?

[Chuck(G)]

Biggs wrote:
Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?

Well, a (string) bass player who sits next to me has mentioned that he doesn't understand how we can deal with all of those ledger lines. I remind him that we don't have to read alto clef either...

[ThomasDodd]

Well, a (string) bass player who sits next to me has mentioned that he doesn't understand how we can deal with all of those ledger lines. I remind him that we don't have to read alto clef either...

I wouldn't mind if the parts, especially marching parts, were written an octave higher and marked correctly (8vb?) Some for tromones. They should use the 8va marking a lot more, instead of all those ledger lines.

[dopey]

umm if u see a "D" u should think Concert C, shouldn't u?

[corbasse]

Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?

First, I was sleeping: that should of course be up a ninth...
The advantage of the treble cleff parts is discussed extensively before: Every brass instrument except trombone and french horn can read these and use the same fingerings which makes it easy to switch instruments.
It's also historical because since the 2nd half of the 18th century horn and trumpet parts are written in this system. Lasty, the majority of the instruments normal register will fall on the staff, with only one or two ledger lines for the low and high notes.
The advantage of transposing up a ninth? There isn't any... You get rid of the ledger lines at the borrom of the staff, only to get them back at the top!

[ThomasDodd]

So is brass has same fingers on all instruments(of the instrument: ex: tuba, euphnium, trumpet) but can be tuned to a different key when played in the open fingering?

Basically yes. 2 is down 1/2 step, 1 is down a step, 12 (or 3) is down 1.5, 23 is down 2 steps. Trombones just lengthen the sklide 1/2 step for each position out. The sounded note then is the open note down however many steps. So if open is Bb, 12 is G, but if open is Eb, 12 is C. Rember the open notes are based on the harmonic series (partials) too, so open could be Bb,F,Bb,D,F... or C,G,C,E,G... or Eb, Bb,Eb,G,Bb... or F,C,F,A,C... depending on the horn. The bottom note in that series is what is references as the key.pitch of the horn.

Just trumpet and treble clef euphonium parts are written 1 step higher than they sound, so a written C, sounds Bb. Not sure about (french) horn parts since it's normally 2 horns with a shared mouthpiece and bell (one in F and one in Bb, the thumb switches them). But I don't think it's written in concert pitch either.

The "trick" is if you take a Bb part, finger the notes the same, but do it on a CC horn, the horn will transpose everything up a step*. I guess the same would happen on an Eb horn, transposing up 2.5 steps (a fourth?). F would go up a fith (3.5 steps). Mostly.

*I guess if you are real good you could fight the horn, and lip it down that step. Buit most of us cannot lip that far.

[Chuck(G)]

Some for tromones. They should use the 8va marking a lot more, instead of all those ledger lines.

Trombones have a ready-made solution. It's called "tenor clef".