More mention of Connie Weldon

[ginnboonmiller]

Women deserve the same opportunities as men. They don't get them. That should change.

Same thing applies to race in this country.

Get it now?

Get what? Your liberal delusional feelings?

Who is speaker of the House of Representatives? Or Secretary of State? Or President of the United States?

When will you guys take the blinders off?

ditto?

[ginnboonmiller]

I am THOROUGHLY baffled by the impression people have that I think women can't play the tuba.

It is completely backwards from what I am saying. Turning someone's words around and restating them more forcefully is just bad rhetoric.

I'm looking for a good Euro shank helleburg style mouthpiece for my PT-5.

[ginnboonmiller]

Bloke, I'll restate my argument - I'm not sure what's so hard about this:

If women DO have the same opportunity as men to become tuba players (for example), why are there so few of them? Are they inherently worse low brass players? NO. Are they inherently uninterested in music? NO. Are there additional external forces encouraging them not to get involved? I say yes. I don't say "special help." I say "fix the inequity."

Connie Weldon is a very, very important educator. Gender aside. I haven't heard her play, strangely, in 30 years as a tuba player, so I won't comment on that. She came of age in the era BEFORE feminism and surely had to fight some battles to reach her level of success that white men of her generation did not have to fight. It's freaking history, not ideology. And today, there are still FAR too few female role models in low brass, and I'm not going to take away her importance in that role, and neither should anyone else.

And I'm very likely to get that Sidey, thanks!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

In the face of the "statistics" that you don't want to look at, and in the context of other fields like management and Investment Banking and stuff... Why do you think that the disproportion exists? Do you think women just naturally want to be teachers and secretaries and don't make good Executives or tuba players? There must be an explanation, and I think lack of opportunity and a long tradition of bigotry is about the best explanation I can think of. And until Slightly more than half of ALL whatevers are women, the equal society you claim already exists just doesn't exist.

I have purposefully avoided comparing "professional tuba playing" to other professions such as the ones you mention, and I would certainly never consider women in the way you questioned that I might. Women can be just fine executives, bankers, managers, tuba players, or just about anything else they want to be, provided they are willing to put forth the effort to distinguish themselves (just like anyone else needs to). Are you revealing your own bias as to what jobs women are "good at"? Perhaps your own elitism by revealing what you think others believe about them?

There doesn't have to be any explanation for the disproportion. Anyone can go to any major tuba audition, look around, and see almost entirely "white men." It is therefore no surprise that most of the winners will represent that group. So what? That fact in itself does not imply discrimination, any more than seeing nearly all young black men trying out for a touring "streetball" team or seeing nearly all women in nursing schools imply any discrimination in those places. You cite a "lack of opportunity" and "a long tradition of bigotry"...can you back that up with any evidence? Equal opportunity for all peoples doesn't have to result in proportional representation in every occupation in our culture...and how terribly bland a world that would be.

It's not an anger thing. But when women have so few role models in low brass, and we have a good one, why fight against mentioning her as one?

I don't think anyone on this thread has "fought" against the mention of Constance Weldon as a wonderful player, teacher, and innovator in the tuba world. I have no doubt that everyone agrees that she's a great example of the value of hard work and dedication...male and female alike.

Good discussion. I truly appreciate that we can debate this issue in a civil manner.

[ginnboonmiller]

Are you revealing your own bias as to what jobs women are "good at"? Perhaps your own elitism by revealing what you think others believe about them?

NO. I have to make this very, very clear. I am saying precisely what I mean with no hidden words. I wonder if people are confusing "ginnboonmiller's argument" with "typical liberal argument." I speak only for myself and arguments that I am not saying what I mean really don't apply here. I promise.

[ginnboonmiller]

Would it be considered a calamity if the REASON that there are so few women tuba players is simply BECAUSE THERE ARE SO FEW WOMEN TUBA PLAYERS?

Not a calamity. But it's still not the case. So, you know, there's that to consider.

And again, I... social engineering? Where do I talk about this stuff? You guys are arguing with a raving lunatic, but not me. I'm not saying any of the stuff you're railing against.

(you guys being bloke and Todd, by the way. I don't want to make any generalizations.)

[Todd S. Malicoate]

NO. I have to make this very, very clear. I am saying precisely what I mean with no hidden words. I wonder if people are confusing "ginnboonmiller's argument" with "typical liberal argument." I speak only for myself and arguments that I am not saying what I mean really don't apply here. I promise.

Accepted, and apologies for any confusion about general statements. I despise labels like "liberal" or "conservative." I just had to wonder where "teachers and secretaries" came from.

And again, I... social engineering? Where do I talk about this stuff?

Again, apologies...but it looks like it to me in nearly every one of your posts in this thread. Are you not saying that women tuba players are discriminated against and something should be done about it?

Women deserve the same opportunities as men. They don't get them. That should change.

Same thing applies to race in this country.

How can it "change" without the use of "social engineering"? My position is that there's nothing to "change" and, if anything, less should be "done about it" than already is being done.

[ginnboonmiller]

Okay, pause for some background.

In addition to being a tuba player (I'll spare my resume, but I'm pretty good and way too serious about it, like the rest of us that read this silly forum), I am a musicologist of a sort. My second Master's Degree is in Jazz History and Research from Rutgers. I did this last year instead of practicing:
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Basics-Chris ... 122&sr=8-2" target="_blank" target="_blank

Anyway, there's a perspective I have from dealing with American culture from a historical perspective that seems not to be getting across too clearly in this thread. You can't deal with American History without dealing with racial politics or gender politics. They are as fundamental to who we are as Babe Ruth and Democracy. The things I am saying are not out of some weird ideological bent to change people, but to react to things that HAVE happened in our history as a culture, that we CAN'T take back and really OUGHT to deal with. It'd be nice if all people were exactly equal and we all held hands and sang about pretty flowers all day, and women just didn't want to play tuba but if they did it'd be great, just great, beautiful really. But that's not how things happened. And we can't jump the gun and go into denial about sexism and racism. This is what I am saying. We're only a couple generations removed from debating whether women deserved to vote, and being outraged that they took jobs at all. And Connie Weldon, genderless as the sounds that came out of her horn may be, is from a generation in which it was NOT genteel or accepted for a woman to be weilding a big heavy piece of machinery and making loud, out of place sounds. And a couple generations later, well, we might not WANT women to have a bigger fight than we have, but they still DO.

And anyway, the "social engineering" stuff... that's a creepy reference to fascism as I read it. I don't want to force anyone into anything, but our history as a nation has forced a lot of people into choosing among a smaller range of options than other people have. Let's UNDO that social engineering and get things proportional again.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I understand what you're saying, and it's coming across very clearly. Thank you for making it so clear. I just don't agree with it. In particular, this:

...our history as a nation has forced a lot of people into choosing among a smaller range of options than other people have. Let's UNDO that social engineering and get things proportional again.

Who is being forced into anything in the United States? People who are willing to work hard have the chance (not the guarantee, the chance) to prosper doing whatever they wish. Those who aren't willing to put forth the effort (a growing number, in my opinion) seem to be getting more and more vocal about what they "deserve." In many (not all) cases, the same folks are very willing to use racism and/or sexism as an excuse for their lack of effort.

[ginnboonmiller]

Ah, so you ARE just defending bigotry. Well, never mind, then. I'll just take my fancy book learnin' back with me to my hoity toity apartment in New York City. If you need me, I'll be cleaning my berets and brewing coffee all night to sip with my unfiltered French cigarettes. You can wait in the shower; I never use it.


I'm still getting a Sidey, and thanks for pointing it out. So there!

[ginnboonmiller]

I understand what you're saying, and it's coming across very clearly. Thank you for making it so clear. I just don't agree with it. In particular, this:

...our history as a nation has forced a lot of people into choosing among a smaller range of options than other people have. Let's UNDO that social engineering and get things proportional again.

Who is being forced into anything in the United States? People who are willing to work hard have the chance (not the guarantee, the chance) to prosper doing whatever they wish. Those who aren't willing to put forth the effort (a growing number, in my opinion) seem to be getting more and more vocal about what they "deserve." In many (not all) cases, the same folks are very willing to use racism and/or sexism as an excuse for their lack of effort.

We disagree about a lot more than you are saying, but thanks for keeping it a fair fight. This was a fun way to make Friday go away and get me to the weekend.

[TubaRay]

I don't know. That'd be great if the status quo you're tacitly supporting weren't a white-boy's club of the stodgiest order. But until elementary school teachers stop thinking that only the fat, slow white boys should play tuba, it's a genuinely big deal when a woman carves out a career for herself as a tuba player. And to do it she has to be five times as good as any white guy. Weldon clearly was that high caliber a player, and the obstacles she certainly faced and overcame as a woman in the tuba world should NOT be brushed under the carpet.

What obstacles were those? Someone's words? Why would she have to be five times as good as any white guy? Are you really implying that since elementary schools don't encourage little girls to start on tuba, it's harder on them to succeed at it? "White-boy's club of the stodgiest order"? How incredibly offensive.

I believe that constantly making mention of someone's gender, color, creed, or whatever DOES brush their accomplishments "under the carpet."

You sound more threatened than offended.

I have read the posts in this thread, all the way down to bloke's, and I still don't understand where you found any evidence of this.

[ginnboonmiller]

I have read the posts in this thread, all the way down to bloke's, and I still don't understand where you found any evidence of this.

There is none. It was a jab with a pointy stick. Not that big a deal, really.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Pointed stick?

[ginnboonmiller]

Ah, so you ARE just defending bigotry.

When all il-logic has been revealed and addressed, the the last edge of the last precipice of any argument is "name-calling".

Mmm Hmmmm.

[graybach]

Bloke, I'll restate my argument - I'm not sure what's so hard about this:

If women DO have the same opportunity as men to become tuba players (for example), why are there so few of them? Are they inherently worse low brass players? NO. Are they inherently uninterested in music? NO. Are there additional external forces encouraging them not to get involved? I say yes. I don't say "special help." I say "fix the inequity."

Connie Weldon is a very, very important educator. Gender aside. I haven't heard her play, strangely, in 30 years as a tuba player, so I won't comment on that. She came of age in the era BEFORE feminism and surely had to fight some battles to reach her level of success that white men of her generation did not have to fight. It's freaking history, not ideology. And today, there are still FAR too few female role models in low brass, and I'm not going to take away her importance in that role, and neither should anyone else.

And I'm very likely to get that Sidey, thanks!

And I guess that you would like to "fix the inequality" that so few men are school teachers, or flute players, or clarinet players, or day-care providers, or house-husbands. We don't have enough male role models in the flute world. Let's make the whole world equal. So we don't have more female influences in the low-brass world. SO WHAT?????????????????????

[Matt G]

I am casting my vote for more male wet nurses.

[graybach]

I am casting my vote for more male wet nurses.

And I guess more male waitresses at Hooter's

[tubashaman2]

.

[TubaRay]

Thank you, Lisa, and thank you "graybach." Your comments are right on the mark.