Rotary Sousaphones

[Mike-ICR]

I think you're right about the piton/rotor hunt. Be prepared for the rotor set to fit differently than what you've got now. Realistically, any piston set you might find would probably come from a tuba and wouldn't fit like what you've got. If you're up for a change it might be a fun project!

Here's a great 1935 Huttl that illustrates my point.

[David Richoux]

Somebody at a San Jose Tubafest Xmas (I think from the Fresno CA area) had an older rotary Helicon with the valves and paddles in almost the same place as a typical Sousaphone - it looked very comfortable for hand angle.

It might not be impossible to convert a Cerveny Helicon into a Sousaphone, if one could find a place to cut the bell at the correct size and place to add an elbow and bell. Might be a bit tight.

[Ace]

The only rotary Sousaphone I've ever seen and played was in 1946. It was a really old, huge Czech BBb instrument that my high school band director let me dig out of the school district's music supply warehouse. It was in such ugly, dented condition it probably hadn't been used since before the Magna Carta was signed. But, if my memory is correct, it had fair intonation and a BIG pillowy sound.

[TUbajohn20J]

I dont know why rotary sousas never caught on, but someday I want to get a 20K/38K sousaphone body and mount a 25J valve section on it. Nothing cooler than a 4 valve short action sousaphone.

[CTAYLOR]

I dont know why rotary sousas never caught on, but someday I want to get a 20K/38K sousaphone body and mount a 25J valve section on it. Nothing cooler than a 4 valve short action sousaphone.

[imperialbari]

To me this one looks like a US made body/bell combined with a Czech valve block. OK, there is a stay in the shoulder area indicating, that this instrument may be all original.

My preference for US made sousaphones is no secret. I never saw a European sousaphone with the right bell proportions.

The GDR sousaphones had very shallow bell flares. Very likely because they did not have the tools to spin large bells.

Most American sousaphones have rather sharply bent bell knees. European and Brazilian sousaphones have knees with bend of a larger circle radius. And their bell knees most often are of a narrower tubing than the American ones. Of course there are smaller American models intended for schools.

Klaus

[oedipoes]

I took this pic off the Gronitz website.
I think it's herr Gronitz, the founder, with a rotary sousa.

Wim

[Donn]

Somebody at a San Jose Tubafest Xmas (I think from the Fresno CA area) had an older rotary Helicon with the valves and paddles in almost the same place as a typical Sousaphone - it looked very comfortable for hand angle.

That's unusual, as you probably know - usually the action is displaced a good ways to the right, compared to where pistons would be, and usually hand angle is not the best thing about the package. It doesn't bother me much, but I've wondered about the options for conversion to pistons.

[Mike-ICR]

It doesn't bother me much, but I've wondered about the options for conversion to pistons.

I've never actually done a piston to rotor conversion on a sousaphone or helicon but I think it could be done. The last branch before the valvset would have to be bent, swapped for a piston style sousa branch, or converted to a tuning slide for the new piston set to fit. The opposite could be done for a piston to rotor conversion. I've experimented with piston to rotor conversions and they usually turn out pretty good. Like anything else it really depends of the instrument.

[David Richoux]

Somebody at a San Jose Tubafest Xmas (I think from the Fresno CA area) had an older rotary Helicon with the valves and paddles in almost the same place as a typical Sousaphone - it looked very comfortable for hand angle.

That's unusual, as you probably know - usually the action is displaced a good ways to the right, compared to where pistons would be, and usually hand angle is not the best thing about the package. It doesn't bother me much, but I've wondered about the options for conversion to pistons.

It was quite a few years ago and I cannot find any pics in my (rather unorganized) collection of snap shots - film & paper days! Now I am having 2nd thoughts about the horn, it may not be exactly what I was remembering - I will continue to search my files. I do remember the hand position as being a bit unusual for the kind of horn it was.

[Donn]

It was quite a few years ago and I cannot find any pics in my (rather unorganized) collection of snap shots - film & paper days! Now I am having 2nd thoughts about the horn, it may not be exactly what I was remembering - I will continue to search my files. I do remember the hand position as being a bit unusual for the kind of horn it was.

I'm not doubting. One way to do it is rotate the valve assembly to the left, which brings the keys over to the left (and perpendicular to the linkage.) I think Mark Rubin had an old Cerveny Bb Kaiser helicon like that.

[David Richoux]

It was quite a few years ago and I cannot find any pics in my (rather unorganized) collection of snap shots - film & paper days! Now I am having 2nd thoughts about the horn, it may not be exactly what I was remembering - I will continue to search my files. I do remember the hand position as being a bit unusual for the kind of horn it was.

I'm not doubting. One way to do it is rotate the valve assembly to the left, which brings the keys over to the left (and perpendicular to the linkage.) I think Mark Rubin had an old Cerveny Bb Kaiser helicon like that.

That is about what I was thinking - just don't remember if it was a Helicon or a Bell Front Tuba with the paddles pointing "down the horn" - still unusual!

[ken k]

here is a pic of the czerveny helicon:



I have always wanted to play one of these puppies.

ken k

[Mike-ICR]

So would this be something simple to do? Like replacing piston valve set with some tuba rotary set?

I don't think it's a "simple" procedure. I think large rotor sets would be easier to find than large piston sets and that any valve set could be mounted into any body. The trouble is doing it right and using the right parts. If you find a set that will plug in where the old set was removed and you don't have to bend/cut anything to make it work, then I think that could be a relatively trouble-free project.

I came across these 2 horns at horn-u-copia

[imperialbari]

As long as we speak 3 valve instruments, the Conn type sousaphone wrap only has valve tubing that is either straight or forms a semicircle. The double top knuckles of the 3rd valve tubing on BBb instruments aren’t beautiful and they represent too many bends too soon after each other to be ideal. But they compress the area needed and they represent a high degree of adjustment potential aka. flexibility.

The two rotary Cerveny sousaphones both display ugly/irregular bends and bows, which are much harder to handle in the final alignment process.

I think bloke and others have mentioned it in other contexts: rotary valves have a larger diameter than pistons, so that they, when stacked, take up a longer linear length than occupied by a similar block of pistons.

The 4th valve tubing of the 28K’s and 40K’s is less ideal. The more complex wrap also represents some draining problems.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Kiltie, I don’t quite see myself providing the fodder for your conclusion about convertion the huge current Cerveny helicon model to a sousaphone. The problems in doing that would be these among others:

Main bugle tubing shall be shifted forwards from the valve cluster area towards the bell. If you mounted a sousaphone body knee in the current Cerveny ferrule, you would end up with a throat of insane dimensions.

I think this could be done. Also that it could satisfy demands on balance (neith front nor rear heaviness). But the revision should not happen during a rebuild by an ever so professional repairman. It should happen from the basic design of a new model. I see no US makers wanting to do this, as they already have killed relevant models of their own (14K, 22K). Cerveny has had no lasting market for rotary sousaphones, and I don’t see that market coming anytime soon.

The last live use I saw of a rotary sousaphone was when West German TV interviewed a bandsman from the GDR army after a parade celebrating GDR’s 40th birthday shortly before the wallfall. It had 4 rotors and the bell was the one from the Weltklang piston sousaphone. A very ugly instrument with a very odd bore progression.

Klaus

[Donn]

If you mounted a sousaphone body knee in the current Cerveny ferrule, you would end up with a throat of insane dimensions.

You would know better than I, but just from a very casual examination of the picture, I think that ferrule might actually be slightly smaller than the collar of the big US sousaphones. Appearances are deceiving because the sousaphone's bell flare is so much wider, it makes the rest look slender.

Not that this would make it practical or useful to graft a sousaphone bell onto a helicon. And the helicons I've seen (pictures of) that were converted from sousaphones, generally do indeed leave bell projecting out of the wrap, so I think you're right about that, I just thought it was interesting how the helicon bell can look fatter than a sousaphone when (I think) it really isn't.

(By the way - that picture is a current Bb Cerveny model, but the one I was talking about is a bit different - valves are different, and if it is a Kaiser body, it's bigger.)

[imperialbari]

My 40K isn’t the biggest sousaphone model. I think at least King, Martin, and Conn themselves made fatter bells and back bows.

Still the last ferrule on the Cerveny helicon is huge compared to the last ferrule on a sousaphone, because it is so close to to the helicon bell. If anything it should be compared to the collar of a non-raincatcher sousaphone. Even in that context it is big, because that Cerveny helicon has a wider throat than any sousaphone I remember seeing.

Klaus

[Harvey Hartman]

I Think You could Put a Rotor Valve set on a Conn sousaphone Body.
I love working on Sousaphones and Helicons. Over the years I have put toghter alot of different Horns just to make a good player.
Afew years ago I bought a 4 valve rotary Sousaphone body without a bell from Germany. So I put a Conn 26" 20K bell on it .It was a good fit.I had to use the Conn Bell receiver.The horn played very nice. and sold it to a Guy in CA. He loved it and was Playing alot of Salsa Music with it. I wonder if he still has it.
Instead of making one horn with inerchangable valves sets and bells . You could Buy or find conn 22K bodies and uses Metal Bells and valves sets . I know its FIBERGLASS!!! but if its tight it right!!!
Last summer I made Cool looking and playing raincather sousaphone for my friend Jose in CA. Out of a King tuba Bell front Bell and a Conn 22K Body and 14K Valves set. The king bell receiver fits on the conn body if you take the first turn off ( the up turn) of the body. and with the nice looking King Tulip Bell The horn look Great. I had to make the longer tuning I just make a slide in set of tubes. The 22K was Painted Black and with valves and bell polished brass. Thanks Harvey Hartman

[imperialbari]

On the sideline of this topic I found a sample of the American Eb sousaphone wrap just with a smaller bore than found with Conn. Normally i would link directly to the photos, but a change of photo presentation mode at a certain marketplace makes that impossible. I am not involved in this transaction:

http://tinyurl.com/WeymannEbSousaphone

Klaus